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>> SPEAKER: Okay, so, we're starting our second
batch, and I'll just turn things over to Katherine

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to moderate the panel.

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>>Kathrine Skinner: Fantastic.

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Thanks so much.

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I'm Katherine Skinner.

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I’m the Executive Director of Educopia Institute,
and I want to start with just a tremendous

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thanks, especially to IMLS, for hosting this
event, and I hope it will be as influential

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as the one was last year, as many people have
noted.

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The conversation that we had here last year
was a rich one.

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It went in some directions that really needed
to be spoken out loud, and it did have an

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effect, and I think that's fantastic.

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So, the core question that this panel has
been asked to discuss is gaps in distributed

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national digital capacity.

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So, where are they?

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Do we seek to eradicate those gaps?

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Do we seek to bridge them?

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If so, how?

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In my work, I've had the pleasure of convening
and joining a lot of cross secotr conversations

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about this topic of late, and some of those
conversations have been with libraries, but

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across library types, so the public libraries,
the special libraries, the academic libraries,

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and usually the archives as well in that context.

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Others have been with groups that cut across
other related fields, including a lot of cross

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sector gatherings of libraries, museums and
archives many of which IMLS has provided the

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basis for, and then still others have been
with groups that are focused on core content

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type, and one that I'll call out in particular
is digital news preservation, where the Reynolds

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Journalism Institute and Educopia have been
partnering with NEH support to enter in the

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conversation with journalists and publishers
and technologists and press associations and

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archivists and librarians, historical societies
and researchers in order to really solve the

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conundrums around born digital news preservation
which we’ve barely even scratched the surface

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of yet.

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Then the most recent was just yesterday, when
I joined the Global Summit of Internet II

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and heard the perspectives of college presidents,
CIOs, technologists, and also some community

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leaders that work with groups like K12 education,
and public libraries, etc., through the Youth

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Camp Program, and across all of those different
groups, the concerns that we have and that

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we're talking about today in regards to gaps
in our national digital capacity are shared

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by many, many others in this extended environment,
or ecosystem, if you will, in which we operate.

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I also want to raise two important questions
before I turn it over to this able panel,

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ones that I know all of us will be discussing
over the next hour.

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The first is, is our national digital capacity
hindered by gaps in infrastructure or is it

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hindered by gaps in infrastructure, or is
it hindered by gaps in relationship, knowledge

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and facilitation, and I’ll share my hand
on this one.

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I believe it's the latter.

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I worry about the cliques that we have in
our environment right now.

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I worry that we aren't nearly polyamorous
enough, to borrow from Dan and also from Jim,

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and an important word that I have yet to hear
today and that I want to encourage us to talk

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more about is facilitation, because facilitation,
active facilitation is absolutely necessary

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for alignment.

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It doesn't happen by magic.

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So, system wide change might happen without
it, but it won't involve the myriad voices

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and perspectives that we need in order to
build a platform that actually serves our

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national digital needs.

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So, let me say that again.

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System wide change may happen, but it's going
to privilege the loudest, most prominent voices

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unless active facilitation of extended communities
is part of this picture, and that brings me

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to the second question, how does our national
digital capacity relate to our business and

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to our mission?

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I don't ask this lightly.

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As some of you know, my background is in sociology
and American studies, and my research interests

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have always tended towards the inception of
new fields and the transformation of existing

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fields, how do those processes happen, how
do innovations come and have an impact, and

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how do networks of people bring those from
the fringes to the center of a field and are

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there ways that we can actually use that set
of techniques to our advantage.

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I'm going to turn to a canonical example today,
one that was researched in Harvard business

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review more than half a century ago, but it's
still extremely relevant today.

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It's a piece called Marketing Myopia and it
was by Theodore Levitt, and in it, he asked

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why growth industries stop growing, and he
challenged the notion that it's because a

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market becomes saturated.

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He says really simply that growth industries
stop growing because the top players in the

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industry forget or they mis-define their mission
and their market.

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As a poignant illustration of this, he points
to the railroad industry and claims that the

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railroad industry didn't lose its prominence
in the field because of a decrease in the

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need for passenger and freight transportation,
those things actually grew.

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Instead, it declined because the field became
saturated with cars and transfer trailers

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and you know all the other types of planes
etcetera.

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Instead it declined because the railroad industry
stopped filling the need that was there.

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They let others take away customers from them
because they assumed that they were in the

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railroad industry, not the transportation
industry.

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They defined their industry too narrowly,
and if instead of believing their business

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was railroad, they had recognized that their
business was transportation, they would have

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expanded to meet the customer demand that
was clearly there.

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So, what is our business?

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What are we building national digital capacity
for and who will it serve?

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Libraries, archives and museums, is that what
we're here to talk about?

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Or users?

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And which users?

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Scholars?

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The public?

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Who?

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Our panelists will begin today by talking
about the need for better stakeholder investment

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and coordination, better understanding of
our goals not just at the institution level

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but at the system level.

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They will discuss and they will shed light
on gaps at multiple sites and levels, so gaps

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in function, where are the tools that are
missing, what content types are lagging behind,

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gaps between tools, so maybe we’ve got Big
Curator and Archive Matica and Archive Space

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but how do we actually link those together,
how do we use those to build real work flows,

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gaps between institutions, how do we build
more networks, less silos, gaps between fields,

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so how do we work with others in similar spaces,
especially museums and archives, which I know

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Seth will especially talk about.

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They'll also talk about what opportunities
arise when we work to fill those gaps.

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So, let me now transition to introduce those
panelists, mostly for the benefit of our extended

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audience because I don’t think any of these
people need any introduction in this room.

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Clifford Lynch has led the coalition for network
information since 1997 CNI.

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Mike Furlough is the executive director of
Haughty Trust, and he's also the author of

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the Un Furlough blog, though I don't think
he has enough time to work on that so much

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anymore.

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Seth Chan is the director of digital and emerging
media at the Smithsonian Design Museum in

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New York, and he's also the co-founder of
Cyclical Defrost, which, if there are any

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music fans out here, you should really check
out his past music history, and he's also

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a longtime blogger, and Karen Cariani is the
director of WGBH Library and Archives at the

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WGBH Educational Foundation.

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So, join me now in welcoming these panelists
and we are going to transition to Cliff and

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we are going to go down the row.

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>>Cliff Lynch: Okay, well, thank you.

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It's a pleasure to be here, and I want to
start with just a couple of words about how

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I think about this whole question of national
platform.

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The term makes me, as some others, a little
uneasy because it has overtones of centralization,

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and really, what we're dealing with here is
more of a program or a portfolio of services

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and of organizations that deliver and support
those services, I think, and the magic here

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is how we make that portfolio reasonably comprehensive,
and above all, coherent and cohesive to allow

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these various services to compliment each
other.

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I think when you think about it like that,
you recognize that there really is an enormous

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wealth of services, some of them quite technical,
some of them really operating at a higher

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level, although they may imply technical infrastructure
that need to be part of this world of managing,

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preserving and providing access to all of
the material that we're interested in, and

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I'm just going to throw out, you know, four
or five examples really quickly to get people

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thinking about how diverse these services
may be and some of the places we perhaps haven't

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been thinking enough.

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I do want to also note by way of framing that
one of the other things we see is we've got

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a lot of capabilities that are parked inside
of institutions but that we don't reuse well

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as a community because people can't find them
or they're not setup to provide services to

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others, so there's a great deal of replication
that seems to happen, and I think part of

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the strategy here is to build on expertise
rather than attempt to replicate is all over

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the place, because it's just too expensive.

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So, here are just a few examples.

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We clearly need a lot more management of names
and identities of all kinds than we have today,

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institutional identifiers, archival names,
the sort of work that Dan Pity and his colleagues

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are trying to bring forward with the snack
project, names that cross between performing

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arts, museums, libraries and the world of
text.

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That is an enormous collective enterprise
which has been stove piped horrendously and

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is now starting to converge, and we need to
figure out how to collectively contribute

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to that convergence.

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There's a tremendous amount of orphan material
that we're all trying to deal with, things

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that are maybe in the public domain, maybe
we can't find out who owns the rights.

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We actually have some institutions with great
expertise there, but we haven't somehow opened

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up this process very effectively.

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Related to that but actually going far beyond
it, there are a number of things that lend

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themselves to crowd sourcing, everything from
proof reading of OCR to identifying photographs

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and tracking down rights on things, we don't
have a mechanism that's very good for talking

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to the public broadly, for asking for help
and saying if you take up challenges from

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these particular places, this will contribute
to the whole infrastructure and the collective

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cultural material that's available.

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Archiving on demand for small places, brokerage
of where can I put things for preservation,

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who helps to take care of things like this
for institutions, who can't, very important.

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Last one that I'll throw out, and this is,
I think, really important, institutions have

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banded together in the physical world, to
some extent, to do disaster recovery.

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When there is a flood or a fire, people come
together and work on that, try and recover

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precious materials that may have been damaged.

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We need sort of an emergency response team
for digital disasters, and digital disasters

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come in many flavors, ranging from, you know,
security problems, where you lose control

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of content, to economic problems or just stupidity
problems, where someone decides to shut down

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a site because they're tired of it or can't
afford it without looking into who's going

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to take success or responsibility or might
like to for the site.

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The Internet archive has done some wonderful
work in this area.

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I'm thinking of, you know, the Geocity's problem,
for example, and archive team's response to

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that.

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We need to do this on a national scale, and
this is part of dealing with the digital world.

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So, my point, particularly in mentioning that
one, is that that is an organizational thing

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as much as anything else, but it's vital to
have these in our portfolio of services that

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make up this national platform that we're
speaking of.

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I’m done.

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>>Mike Furlough: So we need to fill the gaps
of stupidity.

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(Laughing.)

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>>Mike Furlough: Response to stupidity, right.

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So, I want to talk a little bit about restricted
access to materials, materials that, for some

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reason, may not be fully accessible to as
many people as we might like.

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At Audi Trust we do have a deep commitment
to public good.

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We've benefited from funding from IMLS for
years, we’ve undertaken rights determinations.

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We've opened about a quarter million volumes,
found them to be in the public domain.

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All very, very important work to do, but there
are, we need to find more ways to lawfully

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and productively work with materials that
have restrictions of some sort.

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This is stuff that we might not be able to
redistribute beyond a particular user community

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for various reasons, and there are a lot of
challenges in addressing this in 5 minutes,

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because there are a lot of different reasons
why you might need to restrict access, and

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there are a lot of technological, cultural,
and policy issues at play here, so I’m just

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going to try to highlight a few things.

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Restricted access might have to do with copyright,
one we're all fairly familiar with.

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We know that the 20th century is increasingly
harder to study because of the inability to

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get access to cultural artifacts of the 20th
century.

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There are certainly exceptions to this in
libraries that we can make, but we have to

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know how to use them intelligibly.

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We know that we live in a world of licensing
now.

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This is not likely to change.

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Publishers are going to be continuing to aggregating
significant amounts of content and making

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it accessible to libraries further users for
cost, not always the terms we would want.

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There are also other reasons, gaps in knowledge,
right?

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So, in special collections, and I think Susan
brought this up last year, we may have gift

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agreements that do not clearly document the
providence of a collection or what was intended

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for the contributors of the collection.

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It may be materials that are documenting the
lives of living people, and which might need

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some restrictions upon them, and that brings
us to one more, which has to do with privacy

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of sensitive materials, that we are increasingly
seeing users in our universities generate

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material that may have, may contain sensitive
information that might be protected under

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law or just simply for ethical reasons.

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So, all the uses we want to make of this stuff
or all the uses we would want to make of anything,

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preservation for future use or simply reading
and viewing, or access for populations with

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special needs such as the users which have
print disability or are visually impaired,

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but there's also emerging needs, such as computational
uses of material that we might label non-consumptive

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and we can talk about that later.

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There are, it's not the case that we can't
work with this stuff now, we know how to do

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it in some limited circumstances, libraries
license electronic collections all the time,

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we have authentication systems to grant access,
we might only provide access in specific locations

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or to specific IP ranges, but for material
that we have in our collections or that we

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are collecting ourselves or creating ourselves,
we don't necessarily have good capacities

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to manage that material, and not just manage
it in the sense of store it and stick it away,

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but make it useful to individuals.

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So, there are technological solutions that
are in the space that already are deployed

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towards this, right, and identity management,
authentication, encryption or emulation, but

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this isn't really necessarily about creating
new technologies so much as it might be about

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scaling capacity to use them.

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So, there are a few other issues I'll highlight
here.

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User experience issues, how do we make material
accessible and useful in these kind of curtailed

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environments and convey to our users meaningfully
the terms in which they have to operate.

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Expertise issues, knowledge of these issues
in our library or among our users.

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Consider in the humanities, for example, linguists
who may wish to use audio and video recordings

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for linguistic analysis, recordings that may
actually have been conducted, recorded for

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social science experiments under a very particular
research protocol and were never envisioned

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for reuse by other users down the path.

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So, that brings us to one more.

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Institutional policies.

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Our institutions have to balance multiple
legal regimes and risk analyses here.

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It's not just copyright, but in higher education,
you're talking about FRPA and in a lot of

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cases you’re talking about HIPAA as well.

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We have, in universities, a lot of experience
in mitigating disclosure and risks for student

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data or for other data that we collect for
business purposes, or for research studies

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with a very particular research protocol but
we don't have a lot of experience thinking

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about preservation and then reuse of that
data, and at least our universities, I think,

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don’t in that context, and then lastly,
I'll just highlight one more issue, the need

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to balance the protection of privacy for our
patrons with the need to securely identify

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a user with particular privileges.

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Passing attributes through authentication
mechanisms is something that is often necessary

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to do, but it makes us uncomfortable if we're
passing certain kinds of mechanisms and how

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does that material get stored.

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I think in libraries and archives and museums,
we're often conflicted about the role of collecting

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this personal information, and many of our
conversations on this are limited by a lack

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of nuance, and, so, I hope we can find further
ways of doing it.

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So, the last comment I'll make here, no question
our digital infrastructure needs to be developed

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and designed around principles of openness
and linking and sharing.

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Our advocacy has to be focused on broad access
and on issues such as copyright reform, but

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developing infrastructure for services using
restricted content is not about building barriers,

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it's not really about breaking them down so
much as it is about making them permeable

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for legitimate reasons.

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So, to better support all users in this conversation,
we have to think about impact, not simply

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as how many eyeballs or how much stuff can
we deliver, but how much or rather who or

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what could be served that we're not meeting
right now.

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So, I’ll stop with that.

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>>Sebastian Chan: I guess I'm coming from
the museum space, and I'm coming from a museum

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that's been closed for the last three and
a half years.

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We opened in December, and in that period,
we had to think about what it would be like

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to have a physical space whilst everything
should be available digitally, and I think

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it's important that digital platform doesn't
ignore the physical resources that we have

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in our communities, and we perhaps the need
to reconfigure those resources, those, you

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know, public library building to better work
with the digital platform.

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Some of the work in Australia that's been
going on around that in the local government

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space has been to merge the archive, the museum,
the public library and the art gallery in

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regional areas into a single building, where
the library brings the regular audiences in

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and the museum and the contemporary art space
provides that content and those experiences

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to library patrons, and it forms also a digitization
hub in local communities, so that sort of

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sense of having a physical presence for the
national digital platform that's visible to

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citizens is incredibly important, I think.

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You know, I think some of the other stuff
we've been doing at Copper Hewitt has been

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looking at the ways we can build out the work
we're doing on the web as a simple set of

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tools for others to use and really trying
to extract, manipulate and transform data

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from, you know, proprietary systems so that
it can play well with others, but, actually,

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the biggest change we've done within the Copper
Hewitt probably isn't this interactive pen

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that you might have heard about in the press,
but it's in fact the licensing and policy

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shifts that have occurred beneath the surface.

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That means that everything is on loan of from
another museum or on show for Modana, is available

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on our website forever as long as you visit
the museum first, which speaks to my excitement

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about the identity piece and that sense that
the national digital platform also needs an

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identity piece that needs to be thought about.

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Some of the other work we've been doing has
been about thinking about as the content that

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designed the content that designed museums
collect, as it moves away from physical stuff

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into media and moving from media into services,
how do we collect preserved media, how do

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we collect preserved software.

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We've done some initiatives releasing the
source code on the assets of the collection

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00:23:03.470 --> 00:23:10.160
pieces we have into get hub for exposing the
difficulties of preserving them to the communities

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00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:16.301
we are preserving them for, but we're also
starting to think about, and I think the national

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00:23:16.301 --> 00:23:24.280
digital platform should think about 10 to
20 years out from now, about what it means

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for libraries to collect and preserve services,
what that actually means, we need to talk

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more about, but I think, increasingly, we're
not talking about texts as even solitary pieces

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of media, but as systems that rely on many
other moving parts to be experienced, and

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we see some of this with emulation going on
now, but we need to come up with collective

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00:23:51.780 --> 00:24:01.539
ways to address that challenge, and that's
probably about it for now.

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>>Karen Cariani: Okay.

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00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:05.039
Hi.

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00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.039
So, I'm just back from a week of hiking in
the smoky mountains, where all I had to worry

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00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:12.010
about was putting one foot in front of the
other and not fall down.

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I kind of feel that way every day at WGBN
in this digital landscape.

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So, I'm going to start by laying the landscape,
if you will, for audio/visual challenges that

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hopefully will step us forward.

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00:24:22.830 --> 00:24:28.470
The analogue material is deteriorating quickly,
particularly video tape, all analogue formats,

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and some of it's 60 years old, some is only
10 years old.

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00:24:31.560 --> 00:24:34.900
When it does, it will no longer be able to
be seen or heard, and there's significant

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00:24:34.900 --> 00:24:39.570
volume of this material that is our heritage
for the last 60 years.

305
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Since even the newer analogue video tape formats
are no longer being created and equipment

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00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:48.070
is becoming scarce, the older content needs
to be migrated to a digital file.

307
00:24:48.070 --> 00:24:51.110
There is a gap in this migration and digitization.

308
00:24:51.110 --> 00:24:52.770
It's not happening fast enough.

309
00:24:52.770 --> 00:24:57.530
It's expensive, it's somewhat complicated,
it needs expertise technicians to do the best

310
00:24:57.530 --> 00:25:02.400
capture possible since it might be the only
opportunity to capture it, and often, the

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00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:06.030
content holders don't even know what's on
the tape until it's digitized because otherwise

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they can’t see it.

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00:25:07.410 --> 00:25:11.780
Second, born digital media is even more volumous
and complicated.

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The formats are numerous.

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00:25:12.980 --> 00:25:17.170
The technical data to track it is complicated
and the files can be really big.

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00:25:17.170 --> 00:25:18.680
It's hard to manage.

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00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:23.830
The technology to create media, the cameras,
are moving faster than the technology to manage

318
00:25:23.830 --> 00:25:26.299
and store it, at least that's what we're finding.

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00:25:26.299 --> 00:25:30.650
Cameras are created and used with new file
formats, higher resolution, different file

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00:25:30.650 --> 00:25:35.960
organization and naming conventions with the
big files processing time consuming.

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00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.350
It takes time to ingest a big file and move
it from one storage space to another.

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00:25:40.350 --> 00:25:45.070
At GBH we figured out that for all the content
we create in a year, it will take us a year

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00:25:45.070 --> 00:25:49.710
of processing time to ingest it, run the check
suns, create proxies for viewing, and lay

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down onto storage tape, and to do everything
we have to do with it, and then you need to

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migrate, you need to do all those things for
media files for preservation and accessing,

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00:25:55.350 --> 00:25:58.220
and then you need to migrate, which is another
year.

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00:25:58.220 --> 00:26:03.500
In the volume of files, even the small ones
need better tools for adding descriptive data

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00:26:03.500 --> 00:26:05.309
that isn't so time consuming.

329
00:26:05.309 --> 00:26:09.090
Descriptive metadata is one way to discover
this content, but if it takes too long to

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00:26:09.090 --> 00:26:11.150
attach it to the files, it won't happen.

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00:26:11.150 --> 00:26:15.150
If you have to make a descriptive record for
every single file that you create, it's just

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too many, it won't happen.

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We need tools for batch ingested mini files
and folder structures and batch edit attachment

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metadata to those large numbers of files.

335
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Third, preservation issues.

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With digital files, you need to migrate and
check the file every time it’s moved to

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00:26:31.090 --> 00:26:34.100
make sure it's still good and it’s still
viewable.

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00:26:34.100 --> 00:26:38.450
The cost of long term migration of digital
is expensive, and it needs a high capacity

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00:26:38.450 --> 00:26:39.860
infrastructure.

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00:26:39.860 --> 00:26:43.610
Smaller institutions are not setup to manage
this, and the tools and software out there

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00:26:43.610 --> 00:26:47.870
are mostly vendor based and it’s expensive
to maintain, and evolve or keep up with the

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00:26:47.870 --> 00:26:49.400
new tools and formats.

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I think smaller institutions tend to go with
a vendor based solution because they think

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everything will be taken care of for them,
and the solution for long term digital preservation

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00:26:58.460 --> 00:26:59.860
really hasn't been tested yet.

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00:26:59.860 --> 00:27:01.560
We don't really know what it will take.

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00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:06.320
Many copies, constant checking files, always
migrating, it's complicated.

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00:27:06.320 --> 00:27:10.140
Finally, digital media gives us better, more
universal access.

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You can see it on your computer, you don't
need special equipment.

350
00:27:12.221 --> 00:27:13.221
You can see it on your computer.

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00:27:13.221 --> 00:27:15.690
You don’t need special equipment like a
video deck but the rights issues prevent us

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00:27:15.690 --> 00:27:18.240
from being able to allow universal access.

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00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.420
So, although we have something, and it may
be well described, you have to physically

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00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:24.900
come to our facility to see it.

355
00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:28.720
Working on being able to allow broad access
for just viewing, regardless of the rights

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00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.080
involved would be fabulous.

357
00:27:30.080 --> 00:27:34.360
Be It is a library and archive for scholarly
access.

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00:27:34.360 --> 00:27:37.370
Really pushing the fair use rights for universal
access.

359
00:27:37.370 --> 00:27:41.430
Those rights are one barrier to sharing and
why owners want control over their materials

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00:27:41.430 --> 00:27:44.659
as opposed to collaborating with others.

361
00:27:44.659 --> 00:27:48.830
Public media stations, I think, are at the
crossroads of the academic community and commercial

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media.

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00:27:49.830 --> 00:27:54.039
I personally would love to see more collaboration
across all public media in the space of open

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source development of technology.

365
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:01.140
Public media technicians and engineers know
the issues with managing media, but they don't

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00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:04.299
have the resources to build management technology.

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00:28:04.299 --> 00:28:07.770
We no longer have the bandwidth to really
experiment in that area.

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They need training.

369
00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:13.440
We like to generally collaborate, and we have
great connections into our public community,

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00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:17.020
and the public media knows the importance
of preserving our history, we just need help

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00:28:17.020 --> 00:28:21.210
doing it, because it's not our foremost mission
at the moment.

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00:28:21.210 --> 00:28:26.440
I'm hoping that the American Archive of Public
Broadcasting can really help bridge that gap,

373
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.310
and be the conduit for that collaboration
in this space, but collaboration means building

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00:28:30.310 --> 00:28:31.910
trust, and that's hard.

375
00:28:31.910 --> 00:28:37.170
Convening, face to face meetings, communication
is key, and that's time consuming and also

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00:28:37.170 --> 00:28:39.200
expensive.

377
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:43.190
Open source solutions like Hydra are very,
very promising, but right now, it's still

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00:28:43.190 --> 00:28:44.610
complicated and tech heavy.

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00:28:44.610 --> 00:28:48.690
We're looking forward to the Hydra out of
the box and I’m hoping that there's a really

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00:28:48.690 --> 00:28:51.390
good media solution with that.

381
00:28:51.390 --> 00:28:54.289
Building a community solution is really promising.

382
00:28:54.289 --> 00:28:57.809
Hosted services as collaborative projects
are promising.

383
00:28:57.809 --> 00:29:00.770
Collaborative long term storage would be fabulous
for media.

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00:29:00.770 --> 00:29:05.309
It will take the larger institutions helping
the smaller ones to really solve these issues.

385
00:29:05.309 --> 00:29:09.570
Money for the smaller institutions to participate
in that community is also important.

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00:29:09.570 --> 00:29:14.279
Breaking the work down so they can participate
is important and giving them simple tools

387
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:16.809
to use that they can manage.

388
00:29:16.809 --> 00:29:20.580
Simple tools, if you think it's simple, make
it even simpler, because that's going to be

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00:29:20.580 --> 00:29:21.669
really important.

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00:29:21.669 --> 00:29:28.750
>>Katherine Skinner: All right, so, transitioning
out, I want to go ahead and transition to

391
00:29:28.750 --> 00:29:33.660
you guys and let your voices become part of
the conversation.

392
00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:41.720
And so, I will go ahead and open up questions.

393
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:49.029
>>Marley Kennedy: Hello.

394
00:29:49.029 --> 00:30:03.460
I’m Marley Kennedy and I work at the New
York Public Library.

395
00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:08.039
I think this is such an important topic which
gets the gaps and clearly there are many opportunities

396
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:12.620
for us and I expect for generations to come
though will be continuing to be opportunities.

397
00:30:12.620 --> 00:30:16.610
I’d like think about, because I know we’re
thinking about, but I know many other people

398
00:30:16.610 --> 00:30:21.200
are thinking about how we engage the community
and the prioritization of these gaps and how

399
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:26.230
we think about how we collaboratively work
with a community to meet the needs they’re

400
00:30:26.230 --> 00:30:27.350
feeling right now.

401
00:30:27.350 --> 00:30:33.529
My sense is we have to work at this from both
sides, both a base of what tools do we have,

402
00:30:33.529 --> 00:30:37.860
how do we work together to create a collaborative
tech environment, but more importantly for

403
00:30:37.860 --> 00:30:42.669
me is a difference that I’m going to be
able to make in our communities lives today,

404
00:30:42.669 --> 00:30:48.179
or at least within some reasonable amount
of time so that they’re around to support

405
00:30:48.179 --> 00:30:53.559
us when we have a really big investment to
make and they have the patience to deal with

406
00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.230
the kinds of conversations we’re having
today which are critical, but no one other

407
00:30:57.230 --> 00:31:02.110
than the people in these rooms may understand
them, and so I’d like to put a call out

408
00:31:02.110 --> 00:31:07.350
for us to figure out who are our target audiences,
where are the target needs in the communities

409
00:31:07.350 --> 00:31:08.450
that we work in.

410
00:31:08.450 --> 00:31:13.780
How do we open up a conversation with a community
in order to prioritize what we need to do,

411
00:31:13.780 --> 00:31:18.350
so that together we’re actually focused
on the goal of improving their lives.

412
00:31:18.350 --> 00:31:23.460
>>Speaker: Thoughts from any of the panelists?

413
00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:29.049
>>Cliff Lynch: A couple thoughts on that.

414
00:31:29.049 --> 00:31:40.289
One is, this came up in the earlier discussions
but this national platform, this portfolio

415
00:31:40.289 --> 00:31:44.860
of services actually is actually for two audiences.

416
00:31:44.860 --> 00:31:48.740
One is the memory organizations.

417
00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:56.370
The other is the public, and actually, one
of the things we really need to in the digital

418
00:31:56.370 --> 00:32:05.299
world, I think, is to find a better way to
have a conversation with the public, and in

419
00:32:05.299 --> 00:32:13.840
particular to bring materials that are held
by the public into the memory organization

420
00:32:13.840 --> 00:32:23.200
in a collaborative kind of a way, and Brewster,
I'm picking on Brewster today a lot, but he's

421
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:29.860
done so many wonderful things, gave a fabulous
set of examples of how the Internet archive

422
00:32:29.860 --> 00:32:41.210
has worked this with some of the music world,
by bringing in materials and making them available

423
00:32:41.210 --> 00:32:47.850
and collaborating with the bands and with
the people who tape the bands.

424
00:32:47.850 --> 00:32:54.899
We tend to focus a lot on the material that
goes through commercial channels and how to

425
00:32:54.899 --> 00:32:57.880
deal with that, partially because it's easy.

426
00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:04.280
I mean, it's not easy to make the arrangements
we need to make, but the material is fairly

427
00:33:04.280 --> 00:33:10.200
well identified and, you know, moves into
commercial channels, but so much of what's

428
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:18.710
happening is happening beyond those sort of
narrow commercial boundaries and figuring

429
00:33:18.710 --> 00:33:24.760
out how to have that conversation and how
much of it should be local and how much of

430
00:33:24.760 --> 00:33:31.529
it should be facilitated through some sort
of a national service are just central problems

431
00:33:31.529 --> 00:33:38.340
right now, but those things, if we can solve
them, will make a real difference on the ground

432
00:33:38.340 --> 00:33:42.210
to the public in a short period of time.

433
00:33:42.210 --> 00:33:47.559
>>Sebastian Chan: I think one of the things
is, you know, public libraries have a fabulous

434
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:56.429
public library network, and every public library
branch should make visible digitization and

435
00:33:56.429 --> 00:33:57.429
preservation.

436
00:33:57.429 --> 00:34:03.200
It should make visible to local public library
users what is actually going on.

437
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:09.370
>>Mike Furlough: I just wanted to echo what
Cliff was saying there.

438
00:34:09.370 --> 00:34:14.609
I think, what are the problems that your community
has that actually don't look like library

439
00:34:14.609 --> 00:34:17.509
problems might be another way of thinking
about this.

440
00:34:17.509 --> 00:34:22.099
I think last Friday the personal digital archive
and conference was held in New York City.

441
00:34:22.099 --> 00:34:25.480
This is a problem every one of us in this
room has, right?

442
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:29.789
We don't, all of us, in spite of what our
jobs may be, we're not necessarily good stewards

443
00:34:29.789 --> 00:34:35.839
of our own material, our own life in digital
form, and I do think there are roles that

444
00:34:35.839 --> 00:34:40.529
libraries, public libraries, can play in helping
communities with that, so I would just kind

445
00:34:40.529 --> 00:34:46.700
of echo that and shout out to Brewster and
the way of bringing in personal material into

446
00:34:46.700 --> 00:34:51.839
the libraries, and actually the museum community
too, not just an afterthought there, I think

447
00:34:51.839 --> 00:34:59.269
there's a lot of very interesting work about
community life that can be brought forward

448
00:34:59.269 --> 00:35:01.619
in a museum context as well.

449
00:35:01.619 --> 00:35:06.819
>>Cliff Lynch: Just to pick up on that a little
more, I happened to be at the personal digital

450
00:35:06.819 --> 00:35:14.739
archive meeting Friday and Saturday, and you
heard mentioned in the welcome, this work

451
00:35:14.739 --> 00:35:20.329
that's going on here on the DC punk scene
and the way the library is trying to build

452
00:35:20.329 --> 00:35:26.640
up a collection and document that, and there
was an extended presentation on that there.

453
00:35:26.640 --> 00:35:34.690
This is a, you know, perfect kind of model
of the kind of interaction that a library

454
00:35:34.690 --> 00:35:41.140
can have with a community to really do something
significant and reach people.

455
00:35:41.140 --> 00:35:44.809
>>Bradley Dagel: So, hello.

456
00:35:44.809 --> 00:35:48.979
I'm Bradley from the University of Virginia,
and I wanted to follow up and expand a little

457
00:35:48.979 --> 00:35:54.181
bit on, I think, Mike's excellent points about
restricted access and I think the question

458
00:35:54.181 --> 00:35:59.849
a little bit around and start having us think
about nuanced access rather than restricted

459
00:35:59.849 --> 00:36:03.650
access, because there's a knee jerk response
to the word restricted, and what we’re really

460
00:36:03.650 --> 00:36:08.690
talking about is having a nuanced access so
that the appropriate people have access in

461
00:36:08.690 --> 00:36:14.289
the appropriate ways, and one of the main
elements that I'm seeing as another use case

462
00:36:14.289 --> 00:36:20.029
that's causing me a significant amount of
heartburn is this culture of risk mitigation,

463
00:36:20.029 --> 00:36:24.859
where you have organizations who are taking
the physical media that are producing today

464
00:36:24.859 --> 00:36:30.769
and tomorrow's art, creative, any kind of
creative expression, and they are turning

465
00:36:30.769 --> 00:36:37.210
to solutions of risk mitigation, such as grinding
the computers down, rather than allowing them

466
00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:42.680
to ever find their ways into archives, unless
you're a very good personal steward, which,

467
00:36:42.680 --> 00:36:47.799
again, admittedly, most are not, but that
kind of data's not, so we need environments,

468
00:36:47.799 --> 00:36:51.829
nuanced environments, where we can put terms
where we don't even know if they're restricted

469
00:36:51.829 --> 00:36:56.670
or not, or nuanced in any way, but we have
to park them somewhere where they can be preserved

470
00:36:56.670 --> 00:37:01.690
and they can be held in some kind of stewarded
environment that when we do have the resources

471
00:37:01.690 --> 00:37:06.440
to get to them, we can in the most appropriate
way, but right now, we're lacking both the

472
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:13.319
policy and the methodology to do that across
any of these ecosystem, so it's happening

473
00:37:13.319 --> 00:37:17.989
a lot in isolation, but I think the collective
loss is going to be much greater when these

474
00:37:17.989 --> 00:37:24.339
disk images and things that are yet, you know,
remaining in co-ed from haven't had the chance

475
00:37:24.339 --> 00:37:26.880
to be made available.

476
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:32.950
>>Karen Cariani: So we've been looking really
hard at the idea of a password protected access

477
00:37:32.950 --> 00:37:38.509
for scholars, so if they find an item on our
website that they are interested in, that

478
00:37:38.509 --> 00:37:43.750
is digitized or not digitized, that they want
access to, that we allow access to that singular

479
00:37:43.750 --> 00:37:49.789
scholar for a given amount of time under a
password, but copyright law doesn't exactly

480
00:37:49.789 --> 00:37:54.839
allow us to do that, so our legal team is
constantly looking at it, looking at it, looking

481
00:37:54.839 --> 00:37:58.630
at it, and trying to figure out what we can
and can't do and what the risk factors might

482
00:37:58.630 --> 00:37:59.630
be.

483
00:37:59.630 --> 00:38:04.619
The really interesting thing is, is that making
a DVD of that video and sending it out to

484
00:38:04.619 --> 00:38:10.799
the scholar is okay, but for some reason,
streaming it online I guess potentially because

485
00:38:10.799 --> 00:38:14.160
of the hacking ability, maybe, seems more
risky.

486
00:38:14.160 --> 00:38:19.380
I’m not sure why, but that’s a really
good nut to crack, and I think if legal teams

487
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:21.700
voices could speak up about that, that would
be really great.

488
00:38:21.700 --> 00:38:27.479
>>Sebastian Chan: And also, just perhaps a
heretical, somewhat heretical thought that

489
00:38:27.479 --> 00:38:35.799
we may need as we bring in more content, particularly
commercial content, from the people who need

490
00:38:35.799 --> 00:38:42.269
to make a living from it, that we may need
to run some services similar to YouTube that

491
00:38:42.269 --> 00:38:52.069
provide payback to creators and artists in
some monetary way for providing the access

492
00:38:52.069 --> 00:38:55.359
while things are still in copyright and we
need to come into terms.

493
00:38:55.359 --> 00:39:04.749
I don't think the public necessarily differentiates
between seeing a video, archival video streamed

494
00:39:04.749 --> 00:39:12.579
on YouTube with ads vs one streamed from another
site, they just want to get access to it,

495
00:39:12.579 --> 00:39:18.349
and in fact, now, getting it from YouTube,
we did a great exhibition on the, you know,

496
00:39:18.349 --> 00:39:24.150
popular culture of the 1980's at the Powerhouse
Museum where I was in Australia before I moved

497
00:39:24.150 --> 00:39:29.779
to New York, and a huge amount of that work
that the curators did on that exhibit they

498
00:39:29.779 --> 00:39:34.119
did on that exhibit was with the community,
but also was sourced from materials on YouTube,

499
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:37.859
because that's where the stuff was, that's
where the community put it because that's

500
00:39:37.859 --> 00:39:44.180
where they found it easy to put, and it's
also potentially where there is some payback

501
00:39:44.180 --> 00:39:45.999
to the rights holders.

502
00:39:45.999 --> 00:39:48.920
>> Tom Scheinfeldt: Tom Scheinfeldt.

503
00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:59.200
I, Karen, I appreciate your drawing our focus
to issues of digitization, and I think audio/video

504
00:39:59.200 --> 00:40:04.979
is a particular problem, but I think at the
very smallest organizations, you know, even

505
00:40:04.979 --> 00:40:11.089
two dimensional archival materials, getting
those things digitized is still a huge problem.

506
00:40:11.089 --> 00:40:15.329
You know, in working with local historical
societies and stuff, I always come across,

507
00:40:15.329 --> 00:40:20.010
we've got all this stuff, you know, we can't
get it digitized, and the national and even

508
00:40:20.010 --> 00:40:25.329
state and local funding organizations sort
of made a joint decision in, you know, the

509
00:40:25.329 --> 00:40:30.329
late 90's, early 2000's that, you know, we're
not going to fund digitization anymore, we

510
00:40:30.329 --> 00:40:36.359
are not going to fund mass digitization, and
that was a, I think, a good decision for the

511
00:40:36.359 --> 00:40:37.359
time.

512
00:40:37.359 --> 00:40:44.670
The rationale was that this should become
part of the operating budget of the institutions,

513
00:40:44.670 --> 00:40:49.319
that this should be rolled into just the normal
annual budget, the operating costs of the

514
00:40:49.319 --> 00:40:51.089
institutions, and I think that was smart.

515
00:40:51.089 --> 00:40:53.989
The problem is it hasn't happened, right?

516
00:40:53.989 --> 00:40:59.250
So, we've been 10 years, and it's not true
everywhere, but in a lot of institutions,

517
00:40:59.250 --> 00:41:05.680
there is no operating budget for digitization,
and we've been 10 years without grant funding

518
00:41:05.680 --> 00:41:10.160
for it, expressly for it, I mean, and you
can, I've done plenty of this, you can work

519
00:41:10.160 --> 00:41:17.119
in digitization into your budget by other
means, through funding for projects and things,

520
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:24.269
but I do think there's a gap there between
just money for just that, you know, very boring

521
00:41:24.269 --> 00:41:30.670
kind of rote work of kind of getting things
digitized at all levels, up to a big audio/video

522
00:41:30.670 --> 00:41:36.589
archive like WGBH, but down to the photography
collections of the local historical societies,

523
00:41:36.589 --> 00:41:41.579
so I'm wondering how a digital platform, and
maybe it's not a technological solution, but

524
00:41:41.579 --> 00:41:46.390
maybe it’s a social solution, how the national
digital platform and the funding agencies

525
00:41:46.390 --> 00:41:51.890
that support it can help with that gap between
our kind of expectation that this will just

526
00:41:51.890 --> 00:41:56.260
become part of the function of institutions
and the reality that it, for a lot of institutions,

527
00:41:56.260 --> 00:41:57.410
hasn't happened.

528
00:41:57.410 --> 00:42:03.319
>>Kathrine Skinner: Tom and others on the
panel, what role might transparency play in

529
00:42:03.319 --> 00:42:04.319
that process?

530
00:42:04.319 --> 00:42:09.059
One of the things that I wonder about as I'm
hearing you talk, Tom, is how visible are

531
00:42:09.059 --> 00:42:13.170
those libraries that are making it, or libraries,
archives, and museums, that are making some

532
00:42:13.170 --> 00:42:18.440
of these digital file functions part of their
budget, and how much are we sharing that information

533
00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:22.209
between institutions so that we can see ways
of making this possible.

534
00:42:22.209 --> 00:42:26.309
You know, is there room to study that, is
there room for some transparency around that

535
00:42:26.309 --> 00:42:27.809
that may help.

536
00:42:27.809 --> 00:42:34.759
>>Cliff Lynch: Well, I think, actually, first
off, I think you're basically right.

537
00:42:34.759 --> 00:42:39.859
There was this assumption that it would be
part of the standard operating budget and

538
00:42:39.859 --> 00:42:47.239
then it never happened in many, many institutions,
especially public ones.

539
00:42:47.239 --> 00:42:51.170
There are a couple things that I want to mention.

540
00:42:51.170 --> 00:42:57.209
One is there is a little help on the way,
I think, in terms of things like the hidden

541
00:42:57.209 --> 00:43:03.829
collections program that Clear is moving ahead
with, which now is re orienting to include

542
00:43:03.829 --> 00:43:10.299
digitization as well as description, and I
think that's a significant step, and getting

543
00:43:10.299 --> 00:43:17.039
more resources behind that would be desirable,
but there's another thing that's starting

544
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:26.339
to happen, which is I've seen a number of
institutions, notably Indiana University and

545
00:43:26.339 --> 00:43:33.349
the New York Public Library, who are starting
to do analyses of their digitization problem,

546
00:43:33.349 --> 00:43:39.469
often with particular emphasis on material
that is really imperiled, so there's both

547
00:43:39.469 --> 00:43:48.059
an access and a preservation side to it, and
trying to get a price tag on really dealing

548
00:43:48.059 --> 00:43:49.150
with the problem.

549
00:43:49.150 --> 00:43:55.799
Once you do that, I think you can fundraise
for components of it, and it becomes sort

550
00:43:55.799 --> 00:44:02.219
of a finite thing with a genuine deliverable,
it's not just, you know, fundraise to our

551
00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:08.959
operating budget, help support us, but if
we can raise this much money, we can preserve

552
00:44:08.959 --> 00:44:14.979
and make available this collection, and we
can even attach to it a list of people who

553
00:44:14.979 --> 00:44:22.259
paid to help make it available, and I'm not,
I have not historically seen a lot of fundraising

554
00:44:22.259 --> 00:44:29.549
for targeted digitization, but I think that
we're starting to approach an inflection point

555
00:44:29.549 --> 00:44:30.549
there perhaps.

556
00:44:30.549 --> 00:44:37.289
>>Kathrine Skinner: Can I point to one relevant
example of that, which is happening right

557
00:44:37.289 --> 00:44:44.859
now in digital news, which is that the University
of North Texas has just partnered with NBC

558
00:44:44.859 --> 00:44:51.019
5, their local affiliate, and they've brought
in not only collection, they're kind of pioneering

559
00:44:51.019 --> 00:44:54.569
on a couple different levels, they're making
sure the donation agreement actually gives

560
00:44:54.569 --> 00:44:59.650
access rights embedded in that areement, and
they're planning on making those agreements

561
00:44:59.650 --> 00:45:04.539
public so others can hopefully model after
it, but the other really important thing that

562
00:45:04.539 --> 00:45:09.390
they're doing there is they are engaging in
fundraising, and the news channel is actually

563
00:45:09.390 --> 00:45:14.539
helping them do that, and it's been a really
important example that's just come up in the

564
00:45:14.539 --> 00:45:18.069
last couple of months, and it’s worth everybody
paying a little bit of attention to.

565
00:45:18.069 --> 00:45:22.329
They've already raised enough money to digitize
a tremendous amount of the content that they

566
00:45:22.329 --> 00:45:30.759
are acquiring from this NBC universal affiliate,
you know, KNX5 I think is what it’s called.

567
00:45:30.759 --> 00:45:36.270
>>Mike Furlough: This will not be a particularly
original idea, but I think, thinking for a

568
00:45:36.270 --> 00:45:41.999
second about the DPLA hubs model, right, the
model of aggregation of content or metadata

569
00:45:41.999 --> 00:45:49.160
at least within a particular geographic space
that then feeds back up into DPLA, it strikes

570
00:45:49.160 --> 00:45:55.749
me that those libraries that have had capacity
and have invested in the ability to digitize

571
00:45:55.749 --> 00:46:01.819
collections have done it primarily for the
benefit of their collections, and there has

572
00:46:01.819 --> 00:46:09.109
not been a move beyond what I think Internet
Archive attempted to do in the last decade,

573
00:46:09.109 --> 00:46:13.490
to really kind of create what I would think
of as more of regional scanning facilities

574
00:46:13.490 --> 00:46:20.450
or cooperatively owned scanning facilities,
and that's going to be so critical when it

575
00:46:20.450 --> 00:46:26.249
comes to the issues of audio/video, right,
and I think I might in fact be wrong, since

576
00:46:26.249 --> 00:46:29.109
someone’s waving at me over here.

577
00:46:29.109 --> 00:46:33.720
>> SPEAKER: Could I give a very quick shout
out to the great State or the Commonwealth

578
00:46:33.720 --> 00:46:40.990
of Massachusetts, which has the digital commonwealth,
which has digitizing facilities, both a Brewster

579
00:46:40.990 --> 00:46:47.359
lab, as it was called in the day, to digitize
books, and the fancy lab, which would digitize

580
00:46:47.359 --> 00:46:54.079
all types of materials, and they began trying
to digitize for any institution in the state,

581
00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:56.069
they got funding to do that.

582
00:46:56.069 --> 00:47:00.729
They said you can send us up to 5,000 objects
and we'll do it for you for free.

583
00:47:00.729 --> 00:47:05.529
Then they figured out that nobody knew how
to create the metadata to get their stuff

584
00:47:05.529 --> 00:47:12.449
ready, so they started using mobs of students
from Simmons from the guest list school there,

585
00:47:12.449 --> 00:47:18.209
which they called metadata mobs, that would
drive out to the Calvin Coolidge archive,

586
00:47:18.209 --> 00:47:23.729
sit down, crack out a spreadsheet and say
this is how you start creating meta data.

587
00:47:23.729 --> 00:47:28.359
They didn't do it for them, they didn't train
them in a classroom, they sort of showed them,

588
00:47:28.359 --> 00:47:33.140
and that worked, and they were so successful
that several of the small institutions that

589
00:47:33.140 --> 00:47:39.279
used to hate the massive Boston Public Library
that soaked up all of those state resources,

590
00:47:39.279 --> 00:47:43.859
which was how those little institutions viewed
those big institutions back in the day.

591
00:47:43.859 --> 00:47:48.799
They became believers, and they started talking
to their legislators and saying we love this

592
00:47:48.799 --> 00:47:54.170
place, please support this project, so they
now have a separate funding line in the state

593
00:47:54.170 --> 00:47:59.079
budget that has nothing to do with state funding
for libraries but is specifically to support

594
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:01.140
that kind of state wide digitization.

595
00:48:01.140 --> 00:48:07.289
Now, maybe it works because it's a small geographic
area and, you know, you have a public library

596
00:48:07.289 --> 00:48:11.799
with a public mission that is also a research
library, so it made sense for them to have

597
00:48:11.799 --> 00:48:13.220
these digitization facilities.

598
00:48:13.220 --> 00:48:17.990
I'm just saying this is something that we're
also very interested in and, you know, want

599
00:48:17.990 --> 00:48:19.479
to hear more about.

600
00:48:19.479 --> 00:48:20.609
Thanks.

601
00:48:20.609 --> 00:48:24.091
>>Dianica Marthra: They need to do media.

602
00:48:24.091 --> 00:48:28.519
They need to be able to service media digitization
too.

603
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:33.470
So, I think I have the microphone now.

604
00:48:33.470 --> 00:48:43.749
I’m Dianica Martha from Ithica SNR and I'm
responding to Tom's comment because it is

605
00:48:43.749 --> 00:48:45.949
an important issue for me.

606
00:48:45.949 --> 00:48:53.029
We expect so much of our funding agencies,
and they can do a lot, have done a lot, but

607
00:48:53.029 --> 00:49:00.680
it's also up to us as leaders of organizations
to transform them and not just keep adding

608
00:49:00.680 --> 00:49:09.369
on activities, but thinking a little bit about
what do our users actually need, so what should

609
00:49:09.369 --> 00:49:11.759
be our priorities now.

610
00:49:11.759 --> 00:49:19.160
If digitization of our collections is a huge
priority for our communities or user groups,

611
00:49:19.160 --> 00:49:25.660
we should be finding ways to make that a priority
for our operations and not think that we'll

612
00:49:25.660 --> 00:49:29.670
always have to go find new money.

613
00:49:29.670 --> 00:49:33.019
We have to rethink the way we do our jobs.

614
00:49:33.019 --> 00:49:35.130
My plea.

615
00:49:35.130 --> 00:49:40.359
>>Jack Martin: This is Jack Martin, Director
of the Providence Public Library, and I had

616
00:49:40.359 --> 00:49:45.779
a response to Tom too, because as he was talking,
and all these conversations about funding

617
00:49:45.779 --> 00:49:49.119
for digitization, funding to make all these
service visible.

618
00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:54.519
If you think about how much money public libraries
spend every year supporting the publishing

619
00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:58.680
cycle, I mean, if we took, like, one quarter
of that money and put it towards something

620
00:49:58.680 --> 00:50:03.259
like this, I mean, we could easily jump start
something off the ground, but I personally

621
00:50:03.259 --> 00:50:09.119
feel that public libraries spend so much time,
and not just buying books, but, like, moving

622
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:14.289
books through the system and moving books
around, that we don't have the bandwidth to

623
00:50:14.289 --> 00:50:17.339
do anything else, so we have to figure that
out.

624
00:50:17.339 --> 00:50:20.880
>>Brett Bobley: Hi.

625
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:23.420
This is Brett Bobley from the NEH.

626
00:50:23.420 --> 00:50:29.579
First of all, if anyone needs money for digitization,
just meet me near the coffee table after this,

627
00:50:29.579 --> 00:50:33.160
and I'll cut you a check.

628
00:50:33.160 --> 00:50:39.219
I wanted to note, actually, Cliff, I liked
your recasting of the national digital platform

629
00:50:39.219 --> 00:50:43.900
as the national digital portfolio, and I'm
happy, if we want to rename it, I can start

630
00:50:43.900 --> 00:50:46.509
saying national digital portfolio.

631
00:50:46.509 --> 00:50:50.999
I wanted to talk about gaps for a minute,
because that's, I think that's really important.

632
00:50:50.999 --> 00:50:56.249
You know, it's interesting how a lot of people
have pointed out that they're really excited

633
00:50:56.249 --> 00:50:58.819
about this new Hydra in a box project that’s
happening.

634
00:50:58.819 --> 00:51:04.969
It seems the example where everyone knew there
was this gap there, and now it looks like

635
00:51:04.969 --> 00:51:10.430
some key players are working together to try
to fill that gap, and it seems to me that,

636
00:51:10.430 --> 00:51:14.680
you know, today on this panel, you guys have
surfaced a number of gap areas that we could

637
00:51:14.680 --> 00:51:18.190
work on, but it would be really cool, and
maybe it’s just because I am a funder and

638
00:51:18.190 --> 00:51:23.229
I think this way, but it would be really cool
if we could have a convening, maybe led by

639
00:51:23.229 --> 00:51:28.749
CNI or DLF or something to actually create
like a hit list, like here are the top 10

640
00:51:28.749 --> 00:51:35.319
things that the national digital portfolio
needs to work on, here are the top 10 gaps,

641
00:51:35.319 --> 00:51:37.489
so that way, we can kind of spark everyone's
imagination.

642
00:51:37.489 --> 00:51:42.130
We can get teams of people working on those,
and the funders can get together and say,

643
00:51:42.130 --> 00:51:46.299
you know what, we're really interested in
making grants that attack one of these top

644
00:51:46.299 --> 00:51:51.319
10 priorities that the community as a whole
has worked together to identify, but in a

645
00:51:51.319 --> 00:51:55.869
more specific way, like we actually can say,
oh, this is worth looking at item number 7,

646
00:51:55.869 --> 00:51:57.040
let's see how we can attack that.

647
00:51:57.040 --> 00:51:59.349
That would be an interesting next step, I
think.

648
00:51:59.349 --> 00:52:05.089
>>Kathrine Skinner: There are a lot of models
in kind of the social realm right now, in

649
00:52:05.089 --> 00:52:11.959
sociology, business, economics, especially
on the kind of social goods side, that describe

650
00:52:11.959 --> 00:52:16.189
things that are very similar to that, that
basically take an arc approach to, you know,

651
00:52:16.189 --> 00:52:21.309
establishing a direction for the field and
really, you know, figuring out how to use

652
00:52:21.309 --> 00:52:27.049
tools and facilitation to drive some decisions
at the field level and then create ways of

653
00:52:27.049 --> 00:52:31.339
measuring progress towards those goals on
the part of all of the different people that

654
00:52:31.339 --> 00:52:35.930
are involved in the system, and then the funders
are able to use that as part of their roadmap

655
00:52:35.930 --> 00:52:36.930
for funding.

656
00:52:36.930 --> 00:52:42.299
I think that's a really encouraging picture
that you're painting for us right now.

657
00:52:42.299 --> 00:52:49.599
>>Todd Carpenter: Todd Carpenter with the
National Information Standards Organization.

658
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:54.540
So many great ideas and thoughts coming out
of this panel, I have trouble focusing on

659
00:52:54.540 --> 00:53:00.240
just one, but I will take it chronologically
and go back to, Katherine, your point at the

660
00:53:00.240 --> 00:53:02.410
start of this.

661
00:53:02.410 --> 00:53:07.880
As someone who grew up in Rochester, New York
was Kodak was based, a company that forgot

662
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:15.229
the business that it's involved in, what is
the key business that libraries and archives

663
00:53:15.229 --> 00:53:17.339
and museums are involved in?

664
00:53:17.339 --> 00:53:19.980
What is the problem space that we're trying
to solve here?

665
00:53:19.980 --> 00:53:21.989
Is it discovery?

666
00:53:21.989 --> 00:53:23.839
Is it delivery of content?

667
00:53:23.839 --> 00:53:26.789
Is it preservation?

668
00:53:26.789 --> 00:53:33.480
And understanding what the core mission is
will help address some of the needs and what

669
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:37.439
the implications of this platform will have
to be.

670
00:53:37.439 --> 00:53:38.890
>>Kathrine Skinner: Absolutely.

671
00:53:38.890 --> 00:53:40.790
Any ideas on the panel?

672
00:53:40.790 --> 00:53:47.380
>>Mike Furlough: I tend to think of the role
of the library, the ones that I've worked

673
00:53:47.380 --> 00:53:51.079
in, to facilitate the creation of new knowledge.

674
00:53:51.079 --> 00:53:58.589
I think to me, that was the business that
I was in and the work that I was doing to

675
00:53:58.589 --> 00:54:04.049
develop services, to fund digitization, to
create meta data, etc., etc., was all in the

676
00:54:04.049 --> 00:54:09.549
aim of helping users do something with that
stuff and create something new out of it.

677
00:54:09.549 --> 00:54:18.289
So, for me, that does not help necessarily
bring back to some very specific issues, right,

678
00:54:18.289 --> 00:54:23.249
but I do think that's the core business and
that’s probably one reason why IMLS is not

679
00:54:23.249 --> 00:54:27.569
talking strictly about national digital platform,
but also talking about STEM, talking about

680
00:54:27.569 --> 00:54:29.469
other issue around the country.

681
00:54:29.469 --> 00:54:36.089
>>Cliff Lynch: Yeah, I think I that’s basically
right, although I’d broaden it a little

682
00:54:36.089 --> 00:54:37.089
bit.

683
00:54:37.089 --> 00:54:50.329
It’s really about the stewardship of culture
and knowledge, both access to historical and

684
00:54:50.329 --> 00:54:57.039
current, you know, culture and knowledge and
the facilitation of creating new things in

685
00:54:57.039 --> 00:55:04.329
those areas, and I think it's very important
to recognize that it spans, you know, a very

686
00:55:04.329 --> 00:55:11.039
substantial range of human activity when you
look at archives, museums and libraries.

687
00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:17.170
I think there has been a bit of a tendency,
particularly in the library world, to view

688
00:55:17.170 --> 00:55:25.999
it as something that is largely symbiotic
with publishing, and in fact, you know, the

689
00:55:25.999 --> 00:55:33.339
mission is quite a bit broader, and we're
seeing, you know, some serious rethinking

690
00:55:33.339 --> 00:55:41.209
of that now in various settings as, for example,
research libraries in academia recognize that

691
00:55:41.209 --> 00:55:48.309
they're going to end up playing a significant
role in the stewardship of research data,

692
00:55:48.309 --> 00:55:55.779
just as an example, or as we start looking
at all of the largely noncommercial material

693
00:55:55.779 --> 00:56:04.999
that still represents a very significant expression
of culture and the fact that a great deal

694
00:56:04.999 --> 00:56:10.460
of that is, you know, in danger of becoming
highly in ephemeral.

695
00:56:10.460 --> 00:56:15.640
>>Kathrine Skinner: Any other thoughts?

696
00:56:15.640 --> 00:56:20.709
>>Michael: Again, Michael from a bunch of
places.

697
00:56:20.709 --> 00:56:27.400
I've been listening this morning and watching
online and watching Twitter, and I'm remembering

698
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:32.329
something that Nick Pool said, he’s the
CEO of the Collections Trust in the UK, and

699
00:56:32.329 --> 00:56:37.229
back when the UK had a lot of lottery money,
they did a lot of digitization, and they got

700
00:56:37.229 --> 00:56:43.630
done with it and then the economy fell apart,
and the UK has had terrible budget cuts to

701
00:56:43.630 --> 00:56:52.410
the cultural sector, 30 percent cut to the
museum budgets, horrible, horrible, horrible,

702
00:56:52.410 --> 00:56:56.829
and Nick observed, and Nick is one of the
biggest proponents of digitization that I've

703
00:56:56.829 --> 00:57:04.769
met, and he observed that we spent 285 million
pounds digitizing, but we didn't create any

704
00:57:04.769 --> 00:57:12.489
value for the public, and when the apocalypse
came, the public, not surprisingly, wasn't

705
00:57:12.489 --> 00:57:22.099
there to back us up, and I'm also thinking
about, so that's a public driven change model

706
00:57:22.099 --> 00:57:23.359
there.

707
00:57:23.359 --> 00:57:28.779
Another aspect of it is, I'm aware of a big
institution in the northern hemisphere that

708
00:57:28.779 --> 00:57:34.630
has a very ambitious digitization program,
over a million dollars to digitize a big collection,

709
00:57:34.630 --> 00:57:39.109
but they can't convince their own staff that
it's worth working on.

710
00:57:39.109 --> 00:57:43.410
They can't get the registrars, they can't
get the art handlers, they can't get the kind

711
00:57:43.410 --> 00:57:47.089
of rank and file staff to believe that it's
worth improvising or changing, or kind of

712
00:57:47.089 --> 00:57:51.499
coming in, in the morning, and solving those
problems, and that's another kind of user

713
00:57:51.499 --> 00:57:55.859
who has to believe in this ultimately, and
I'm also thinking about something that Brewster

714
00:57:55.859 --> 00:57:59.589
told me once, and I proposed a drinking game
online, that every time mentored mentions

715
00:57:59.589 --> 00:58:05.380
Brewster, we should take a shot, and the consensus
is we can't possibly keep up with that.

716
00:58:05.380 --> 00:58:12.099
I'd like to try, but Brewster said, kind of
as a bottom line, and I repeat this in almost

717
00:58:12.099 --> 00:58:17.359
every talk I give, that without users, our
shelves are empty at the open library, and

718
00:58:17.359 --> 00:58:21.160
that's, you know, that's kind of the litmus
test, that when I see organizations and platforms

719
00:58:21.160 --> 00:58:26.029
and movements that survive all of the horrible
ambiguities it takes to bootstrap something,

720
00:58:26.029 --> 00:58:30.489
it's the one that have that eye level relationship
with their real users every day, and who kind

721
00:58:30.489 --> 00:58:36.240
of live or die by that, that are going to
weather the inevitable storms that come with

722
00:58:36.240 --> 00:58:38.009
trying to start something new.

723
00:58:38.009 --> 00:58:43.859
I can probably turn that into a question,
but I probably shouldn't.

724
00:58:43.859 --> 00:58:47.509
>>Kathrine Skinner: It's a really helpful
comment, and, you know, just bridging it back

725
00:58:47.509 --> 00:58:52.039
to the conversation that we've been having
here, it really does come back to what is

726
00:58:52.039 --> 00:59:00.670
the mission and how are users factored into
that mission and who's missing from the conversation,

727
00:59:00.670 --> 00:59:04.569
and even looking around this room today, you
know, there are groups that are missing today,

728
00:59:04.569 --> 00:59:09.900
and one of those groups is significantly the
user community, and I don't know how to mend

729
00:59:09.900 --> 00:59:16.650
that, I don't know how you bring in, you know,
the public figures to speak to what they want

730
00:59:16.650 --> 00:59:22.510
from libraries, archives and museums, but
I will at least remark that it is a bit problematic

731
00:59:22.510 --> 00:59:27.429
that we're all coming into this environment
without that group kind of front and center

732
00:59:27.429 --> 00:59:28.429
in our conversation.

733
00:59:28.429 --> 00:59:31.449
>>Sebastian Chan: Yeah, I think it's only
possible at the local level.

734
00:59:31.449 --> 00:59:37.420
I think it's most effective at the local level,
and I would suggest that perhaps we need to

735
00:59:37.420 --> 00:59:45.539
think about balancing digitization of the
collections we have with the efforts to collect

736
00:59:45.539 --> 00:59:51.749
the digital born materials and services that
we should have from the present, because we

737
00:59:51.749 --> 00:59:56.569
will never get a chance to get those back
in the future, and those aren't necessarily

738
00:59:56.569 --> 01:00:05.049
covered by copyright, or just copyright, but
by license agreements and complex system structures

739
01:00:05.049 --> 01:00:08.289
that are not easy to replicate.

740
01:00:08.289 --> 01:00:15.189
So, I would caution against doing, spending
all the money and resources on digitizing

741
01:00:15.189 --> 01:00:20.849
the past and forgetting that the present is
probably more relevant to our existing users

742
01:00:20.849 --> 01:00:21.849
right now.

743
01:00:21.849 --> 01:00:28.509
>>Kathrine Skinner: Well, in coming back to
the gaps in the national capacity, I wonder

744
01:00:28.509 --> 01:00:32.900
again where Karen was going with all of her
remarks, a lot of her remarks around digital

745
01:00:32.900 --> 01:00:38.599
preservation, and so that responsibility level
of having the capacity to handle what we're

746
01:00:38.599 --> 01:00:42.459
digitizing or to handle what we're bringing
in in a born digital fashion as well.

747
01:00:42.459 --> 01:00:43.459
Sorry, Cliff.

748
01:00:43.459 --> 01:00:44.459
I didn’t mean to cut you off.

749
01:00:44.459 --> 01:00:49.920
>>Cliff Lynch: I was really just going to
underscore what Sebastian was saying.

750
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:56.819
I think we need to be careful with our language
here, because we tend to talk about digitization,

751
01:00:56.819 --> 01:01:02.989
and that puts a very large focus on what's
essentially retrospective digitization of

752
01:01:02.989 --> 01:01:04.450
existing collections.

753
01:01:04.450 --> 01:01:13.339
Now, there are some cases where those collections
have, you know, major physical problems, and

754
01:01:13.339 --> 01:01:17.929
dealing with that basically is going to be
a driver for digitization in the very short

755
01:01:17.929 --> 01:01:24.890
term, but I think that, you know, what we're
seeing and what we really need to deal with

756
01:01:24.890 --> 01:01:31.239
now is as much a challenge of born digital
material coming at us from every angle as

757
01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:38.359
just looking at these, you know, massive physical
collections, some of which are, you know,

758
01:01:38.359 --> 01:01:46.229
okay and can probably stay as physical collections
just in terms of, you know, priorities for

759
01:01:46.229 --> 01:01:51.699
limed resources.

760
01:01:51.699 --> 01:01:58.680
>> SPEAKER: I know I'm standing between you
and lunch, but as we look at the gaps, I think

761
01:01:58.680 --> 01:02:03.479
it's important, and Maura made me think of
this as well, I think we need an inventory

762
01:02:03.479 --> 01:02:05.980
of what's going on at the local level.

763
01:02:05.980 --> 01:02:09.680
I mean, I'm in Connecticut at Connecticut
State Library.

764
01:02:09.680 --> 01:02:14.959
We have a lot of things going on, we're taking
in user content, we're experimenting and all

765
01:02:14.959 --> 01:02:15.959
these things.

766
01:02:15.959 --> 01:02:19.489
State by state, and as I represent the chief
officers, I think that's something that the

767
01:02:19.489 --> 01:02:23.869
state librarians could help with, whether
it's with our historical societies or local

768
01:02:23.869 --> 01:02:24.869
museums.

769
01:02:24.869 --> 01:02:27.609
You know, here's been a lot of talk about,
you know, how we can help these folks.

770
01:02:27.609 --> 01:02:31.679
There's a lot going on, and I think we need
to get a better understanding of what is going

771
01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:36.029
on and what's holding those projects back
or where is there more synergy and how can

772
01:02:36.029 --> 01:02:40.709
we created and how do we do that, but until
we really have a good inventory of what's

773
01:02:40.709 --> 01:02:45.880
going on out there, I think we're going to
be, you know, not addressing the issue quite

774
01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:46.890
the way we could.

775
01:02:46.890 --> 01:02:53.140
>>Mike Furlough: That goes back to an earlier
comment, I think in the last panel, about

776
01:02:53.140 --> 01:02:59.109
scanning the perimeter, right, and in identifying
gaps, it's very likely there are gaps that

777
01:02:59.109 --> 01:03:04.839
folks are trying to meet that are not yet
full blown central or core solutions.

778
01:03:04.839 --> 01:03:07.839
I think that's an excellent point.

779
01:03:07.839 --> 01:03:14.309
>>Karathin Mulsen: Sorry.

780
01:03:14.309 --> 01:03:16.569
Karathin Mulsen again, AV Preserve.

781
01:03:16.569 --> 01:03:23.279
I agree with a lot of what's being said about
the need to focus on born digital, but also,

782
01:03:23.279 --> 01:03:28.020
the digitization point is really important,
especially what Karen brought up, and I want

783
01:03:28.020 --> 01:03:34.509
to reiterate, I don't think everybody is taking
this seriously, that magnetic media is disappearing

784
01:03:34.509 --> 01:03:39.859
very rapidly, and those projects that were
mentioned about, you know, from New York Public

785
01:03:39.859 --> 01:03:44.880
Library, Indiana University, those were AV
focused projects, because they recognized

786
01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:49.859
the risks, they took stock of what they had
and they’ve made plans to move forward.

787
01:03:49.859 --> 01:03:55.429
Experts agreed a couple years ago that we
had about 2 years, or 2 years ago, that we

788
01:03:55.429 --> 01:04:01.719
had about 15 years left before it was really
scalable to digitize magnetic media, so let's

789
01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:04.529
call that 13 years left, okay?

790
01:04:04.529 --> 01:04:07.239
So, we don't have a lot of time.

791
01:04:07.239 --> 01:04:09.929
Getting all that done is not going to happen
overnight.

792
01:04:09.929 --> 01:04:12.079
We really, really need awareness of this.

793
01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:15.400
We need to stop digitizing paper right now.

794
01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:20.279
We need to focus on magnetic media, because
we don't have that much time.

795
01:04:20.279 --> 01:04:23.799
So, I just want to bang that drum a little
bit louder.

796
01:04:23.799 --> 01:04:25.929
I want to support what Karen was just saying.

797
01:04:25.929 --> 01:04:32.150
I also want to point out that, you know, from
the national platform point and how do we

798
01:04:32.150 --> 01:04:38.329
connect globally, in Europe, they took this
on about 10 years ago under the Presto Projects,

799
01:04:38.329 --> 01:04:43.619
they, you know, they funded at an EU level
and at national levels the digitization of

800
01:04:43.619 --> 01:04:47.849
their AV media, and they're still doing it,
but, you know, they're much, much farther

801
01:04:47.849 --> 01:04:48.849
along than we are.

802
01:04:48.849 --> 01:04:52.529
We're not Europe, we do things a little bit
more, you know, differently, but the creation

803
01:04:52.529 --> 01:04:56.259
of Europeana was one of the major catalysts
for that effort.

804
01:04:56.259 --> 01:05:01.410
They said, well, we really need to get our
stuff in Europeana, and Europeana pushed audio/visual

805
01:05:01.410 --> 01:05:05.339
with some of the other sub projects under
it such as EU Screen, and they really got

806
01:05:05.339 --> 01:05:06.459
that going.

807
01:05:06.459 --> 01:05:08.900
I don't see that happening in this country.

808
01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:13.959
I don't know if there's an awareness at the
national level, but we will experience major

809
01:05:13.959 --> 01:05:19.839
loss if we don't do something, and, so, I'd
like to suggest to the funders that if you're

810
01:05:19.839 --> 01:05:23.969
going to fund digitization, fund the things
that are really disappearing, that cannot

811
01:05:23.969 --> 01:05:25.919
be viewed with your eyeballs.

812
01:05:25.919 --> 01:05:30.369
Okay, so, you need machines to view these
things, you need machines to play them back,

813
01:05:30.369 --> 01:05:32.569
you need experts to do this kind of work.

814
01:05:32.569 --> 01:05:35.180
We don't have that much time.

815
01:05:35.180 --> 01:05:40.259
There was recently a blog post about an OCLC
meeting I think, I might be misrepresenting

816
01:05:40.259 --> 01:05:45.160
this, but there was a little summary that
said AV is a problem, but researchers don't

817
01:05:45.160 --> 01:05:50.499
have that much of an interest in AV, and it
was kind of shocking, because most of the

818
01:05:50.499 --> 01:05:54.849
Internet is video these days, so don't, you
know, it's kind of ludicrous to say that there's

819
01:05:54.849 --> 01:05:57.380
not a strong interest in video.

820
01:05:57.380 --> 01:06:02.160
You know, what's being produced and put out
there by users is video, so there's obviously

821
01:06:02.160 --> 01:06:03.759
a strong interest in video.

822
01:06:03.759 --> 01:06:08.400
The problem we have is it's locked away on
obsolete media in stoarge, nobody even knows

823
01:06:08.400 --> 01:06:11.750
what they have, so if we don't do something
about it, it's going to be gone.

824
01:06:11.750 --> 01:06:14.380
So, we either accept the loss or we do something.

825
01:06:14.380 --> 01:06:20.670
>>Kathrine Skinner: I think we have time for
one more question or one more comment.

826
01:06:20.670 --> 01:06:25.489
>>SPEAKER: Mike, thank you very much for bringing
up the copyright issue and restricted access

827
01:06:25.489 --> 01:06:26.489
to things.

828
01:06:26.489 --> 01:06:34.099
I love that it's also during the distributed
national capacity for a reason.

829
01:06:34.099 --> 01:06:35.880
We've tried some things quite centrally.

830
01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:41.059
The Google books project, ended up with a
bunch of lawsuits and stopped.

831
01:06:41.059 --> 01:06:46.740
It proposed what was essentially an extended
collective license, a new organization that

832
01:06:46.740 --> 01:06:48.799
would own and control the orphans.

833
01:06:48.799 --> 01:06:54.509
Tomorrow, Maria Palenty will be speaking on
the orphans at a Congressional hearing, and

834
01:06:54.509 --> 01:06:58.959
thankfully, actually, I read her statement,
it didn't look like she was really trying

835
01:06:58.959 --> 01:07:02.919
to propose an extended collective license
going forward.

836
01:07:02.919 --> 01:07:09.200
It comes around timing around laws and how
it affects our library field.

837
01:07:09.200 --> 01:07:17.429
We have not fielded well in the area of law
changes, and I think that we want to go forward

838
01:07:17.429 --> 01:07:21.719
with radical distributed capacity.

839
01:07:21.719 --> 01:07:30.959
I talk to many that are doing private distribution
of digitized works within their campuses or

840
01:07:30.959 --> 01:07:31.959
whatever.

841
01:07:31.959 --> 01:07:35.919
They just say, well, we're just doing it and
it's working, don't tell anybody.

842
01:07:35.919 --> 01:07:37.779
That's happening a lot.

843
01:07:37.779 --> 01:07:43.989
I suggest we encourage and keep that moving
forward, that we don't go and depend on the

844
01:07:43.989 --> 01:07:48.569
national platform for solving this for us,
because I think we'll get it wrong if we do

845
01:07:48.569 --> 01:07:49.569
that.

846
01:07:49.569 --> 01:07:55.960
If we consolidate particularly the law and
policy things on a couple Haughty Trust looking

847
01:07:55.960 --> 01:08:00.549
like things, we will end up with the wrong
solutions.

848
01:08:00.549 --> 01:08:07.150
So, I'm suggesting we not do a section 108
committee anytime soon.

849
01:08:07.150 --> 01:08:17.029
I suggest that we have radically decentralized
approaches to the copyright issues, and by

850
01:08:17.029 --> 01:08:20.799
the time this stuff comes around, there's
best practices that have evolved.

851
01:08:20.799 --> 01:08:28.639
Laws are best made in retrospect of practice
as opposed to in hypotheticals, and if anybody

852
01:08:28.639 --> 01:08:34.109
would be interested in radical decentralized
approaches to this and help along those lines,

853
01:08:34.109 --> 01:08:35.130
I'm always game.

854
01:08:35.130 --> 01:08:36.370
>>Kathrine Skinner: Great.

855
01:08:36.370 --> 01:08:39.199
>>Mike Furlough: Can I make one comment real
quick?

856
01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:40.730
I think that's an excellent point.

857
01:08:40.730 --> 01:08:45.529
I think there's some things you can do, let's
talk about risk management, or willingness

858
01:08:45.529 --> 01:08:51.759
to take risk that you can do in a local context,
the more you aggregate up the issue, the problem,

859
01:08:51.759 --> 01:08:55.880
right, the less likely some folks are willing
to take those risks, right, because the risk

860
01:08:55.880 --> 01:09:00.199
becomes larger and you become a bigger target,
so there is something to be said about that.

861
01:09:00.199 --> 01:09:04.299
On the other hand, I will also say, there's
also something to be said for taking big risks

862
01:09:04.299 --> 01:09:11.319
in a very large way and at least making some
motion forward, if not in the written law,

863
01:09:11.319 --> 01:09:12.489
perhaps at least in the courts.

864
01:09:12.489 --> 01:09:13.830
>>Kathrine Skinner: Great.

865
01:09:13.830 --> 01:09:17.339
So, on that note, we will disband and go to
lunch.

866
01:09:17.339 --> 01:09:18.909
Please join me in thanking the panelists.