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welcome to everyone who's joining thank
you so much for being here for our fifth

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conversations with crosby welcoming very
special guest uh secretary lonnie bunch

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and i'll do a brief housekeeping
announcement as we let folks continue to

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join here
we're very fortunate to have an

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exciting discussion ahead of us
um just to let you know this event is

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being recorded and it will be shared on
the imls website and youtube channel

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afterward
and we also welcome you to ask questions

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of crosby and secretary bunch via the
question box at any point during a

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conversation we'll be keeping an eye on
that and we'll um pose some to crosby

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and secretary bunch for a q a and
discussion near the end of the hour uh

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with that welcome we're glad to have you
and i'll hand it over to crosby to do a

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proper introduction thank you
great thank you very much elizabeth um

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the purpose of these conversations is to
look at the importance of the arts and

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humanities in the life of museums and
libraries and particularly uh what will

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happen uh
to them and them

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uh
in in the post-pandemic world which we

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we hope is on the horizon
and today my my counselor and advisor is

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the
zlani bunch iii who is the 14th

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secretary of the smithsonian institution
which means he is the ceo head honcho or

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as he has said uh in his book of fools
aaron the benign dictator uh of the of

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the smithsonian which is a pretty uh
remarkable position uh because it is not

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only the largest museum it is a
collection of 19 museums also 21

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libraries so from an imls point of view
he's the ideal uh

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counselor
nine i think research institutions and

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lonnie has his own zoo as well the
washington national zoo everyone should

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have a zoo but why it does have zoo
um he's the founding director uh

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of uh and
and the builder the inspiration the

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designer and uh uh creator of the last
great smithsonian building the the last

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great building on the mall
the national museum of african american

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history and culture
an extraordinary building an

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extraordinary site an extraordinary uh
collection

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um he he was the director before he
became the director of the national

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museum
of the chicago historical society

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and before that he had a career inside
the smithsonian both at the air and

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space museum and at the american history
museum but most importantly for uh our

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uh purposes today he's been the most
eloquent

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indefatigable
and inspirational voice and advocate for

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the museum world in the most trying of
times so why

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we've just gone through and we're still
going through one of the most trying

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times in recent american history maybe
all of american history at least going

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back to the civil war
not only do we have a pandemic we've had

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the racial and economic protests
we have poor black and brown uh kids and

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and and poor white kids uh all kids of
all color falling behind because of uh

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virtual schooling is not in-person
schooling um we have had an attack on

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our capital and that constitutional
process

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and some museums are i have been in deep
trouble through throughout this uh uh

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how bad it is
is the situation for museums and what

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can we do is this an existential
situation for museums and

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uh
what's going on at the at the

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smithsonian uh in in light of all this
well i think that what's clear to all of

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us is that the nation is in crisis and
when a nation is in crisis it's it's

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incumbent upon cultural institutions
museums libraries to figure out how can

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they contribute to helping a nation be
made better and i would argue that what

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i'm seeing are museums and libraries
trying to find different ways to connect

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with broad audiences to basically be the
kind of glue that helps to hold the

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nation together i think that what
museums and libraries can do that many

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other places can't is they can bring
together people of different political

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points of view um who trust them
and who engage with them and hopefully

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through that create the kinds of
dialogues and kinds of messaging that

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helps people realize that um
we're better when we're when we cross

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racial and political lines for the
greater good well and polarization is

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such a huge topic today that you know
the gallup poll in uh in 1960

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uh showed that uh
the the biggest divides in america were

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race and religion if you know the
typical question the great question

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would you want your daughter to marry
one uh whites and blacks would say no uh

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from a racial point of view uh massively
uh and also religiously the jews christ

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uh christians uh
jews catholics and protestants

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wouldn't want their their daughter or
son to to marry someone other religion

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today
we've had a lot of progress both on on

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the religious and and racial sides of
that and today the gallup poll shows

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that
republicans don't want their their

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children to marry democrats and
democrats don't want their children to

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marry republicans we're so politically
polarized and it's not really a it's in

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a way it's not even about issues it's
not about public issues it's it's about

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some kind of cultural polish
polarization and so how how does it how

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does a museum
deal with that

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well in many ways i would argue that as
you framed it that there are several

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layers
that the foundation is the great

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political divide but i think that how
that plays out is in amplifying other

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divides racial divides cultural divides
so that in a way what i think museums

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can do
is

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i believe very strongly that museums and
libraries at their best

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help the public by defining reality and
still giving hope

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as a historian it's clear to me that
we've had these moments before

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um that doesn't mean that this is not a
really horrible challenging time but

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what it means is that as a nation we
have had those moments when we were able

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to come together and cross these
boundaries and

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incrementally move the nation forward
so i think what our job is now

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is to one provide that context so people
understand sort of where we are and

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what's possible and then encouraging
people to find ways to cross these

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divides to basically help the nation
live up to its stated ideals

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and that for me
um what's crucial about museums and

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libraries is they're about the greater
good if they're not about the greater

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good if they're not about providing that
reservoir of possibility if they're not

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about contextualizing helping people
find understanding then we've missed the

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opportunity of a lifetime and

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yeah i think you're absolutely right and
i love the word which you use frequently

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contextualized which it seems to me for
historian you're a historian by training

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um
is the most uh important word and i

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think about this uh
we have shared a project the smithsonian

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and the imls uh called the realm project
they're reopening archives libraries and

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museums scott miller your chief
scientist has been a a very important

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part of this project and we we just
turned it into uh

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from a serious research project about
the virus on museum and library

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materials and spaces and whatnot
surfaces

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to a vaccination education uh project
and and it's

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the
the information side of this the

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misunderstanding i think george
washington and benjamin franklin

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vaccinated their families exactly 250
years ago they vaccinate every state

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every state
republican and democrat controlled

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states have
vaccination mandates on

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uh measles or polio or tetanus or what
whatever they're there there are lots of

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vaccinations and i i i think somehow
we've we've missed an opportunity and i

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think the museum and library worlds are
are a little bit at fault in this in

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that we haven't contextualized exactly
what you say uh the the vaccination

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issue um
we need to

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reverse the trend of vaccinations being
about libertarians versus centralized

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status or whatever whatever
in people's minds this is

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um
to a question of basic public health

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that you know
from the founding of the republic we

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have believed in

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public health as a community
activity

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and for many of us of a certain age we
remember polio

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and the scares you know i remember my
mother saying don't go into a swimming

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pool in august
and i remember the

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sort of confidence that came with
standing in those long lines in our

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elementary schools to get our shots and
then a year later to get the sort of

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sugar cube
but what it really meant to me was that

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vaccinations really were seen as part of
the greatness of american scientific

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creativity and they were key to helping
us feel we could live the lives we

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wanted and so i think the challenge for
us has been how do we as institutions of

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learning help provide the data and so
one of the things that i'm very proud of

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is that the smithsonian's work with many
museums and libraries to create um

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vaccine vaccines and us you know
basically saying first and foremost

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let's give you the data about this let's
let's begin to counter the notion is

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somebody said to me the other day they
didn't want to get a vaccine a

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vaccination because they felt that they
would be a chip would be inserted in

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them um they didn't want the government
to follow them and i said well you're

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using your phone so we know more about
you

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than you really want to admit and i
think the notion really is how do we

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provide information
how do we sort of make it clear that

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this is the right thing to do for the
greater good of the country how do we

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use history to show how vaccinations um
how they're created and how they've

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really been transformative at various
times so you know the challenge is

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for many museums and libraries there's a
fear about um getting involved in the

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contemporary issue right you'll be
pulled into the partisan times

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i think you're going to be pulled in no
matter what so the key is you should

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really i think do the best work you can
to help a nation be made better yes

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you're not going to say that we're
democrat or republican what you're

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saying is for the greater good of a
nation

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here are some of the ways we can move
forward yeah we're a community i think

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that's what what we're trying to say and
and i i think there's no better

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demonstration of how important uh
museums are and libra libraries too this

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happened in libraries but there was that
moment uh when we thought the pandemic

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was going away in may and june
uh when and lots of museums opened up

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and there were lines uh
uh around the block for particularly for

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the newer exhibitions and whatnot but
but people were desperate

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to get out
to get out of their houses and and

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their
their zoom calls uh etc but they were

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desperate to get out and go someplace
where they could be together

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uh and be together sharing something and
sharing some learning sharing sharing

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sharing an experience that had to do
with learning it seems to me that there

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is a huge opportunity
uh in all of that for all of us in the

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museum world there's a great opportunity
as you put across me because on the one

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hand there is the continued confidence
um that comes from dipping into a

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reservoir that is library or museum that
the public has

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that they trust us but then there is
that sort of social element right that

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opportunity to sort of be made better by
the kind of conversations that occur

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when you're in a museum or a library and
when we had the confidence that we were

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on top of the pandemic more and more
people came out i've always been struck

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what i've loved about museums especially
or at least my goal was to try to

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replicate what happened when i was a
little kid i used to go my family would

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have a barbecue in the backyard right
and and one uncle would say something

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and then an ant would say something and
the conversation would go in very

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different directions and everybody was
made better by that different

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interaction and i wanted museums to be
that place where i would see people

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stand in front of an artifact
and one person would say this and one

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person would do that and we'd create
informal communities those informal

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communities gave confidence they've gave
trust but they allowed us to learn

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from each other and i think that's
what's been missing during this pandemic

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it's wonderful to sort of see people via
zoom but the kind of learning that

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occurs from the kind of informality of
what often happens in a museum or

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library was missing you know it your
conversation is a is an important word

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in your in your work and and uh
in your view of the the world and it is

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in mind too and creating communities
around conversations but it used to be

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when i was growing up and you and i are
not far away from the same same age so

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i'll say when we were growing growing up
we would watch the same tv programs to

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some extent this the news programs at
night were the the same there were you'd

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have water cooler conversations or
playground conversations uh about the

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same things
and and that doesn't happen anymore

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where our information comes from too
many different places um uh our shared

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experience uh doesn't happen uh that
that that often um and and which makes

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the the museums and libraries it seems
to me even more important because that

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is the place that we are able to have
community conversations uh these days

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well i i think you've really put your
finger on it i want to emphasize this

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notion of what's our responsibility to
try to help bring people together of

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different political points of view of
different levels of learning i think

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that that's really important and since
everybody is now sort of splintered you

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know if you're certain political points
you watch certain television versus

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others but you have to find those places
that are reservoirs of possibility that

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are glues that helps the nation move
forward and i think that if libraries

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and museums take that role on explicitly
they are not only sort of helping their

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own evolution but they're really helping
a country and they're really helping us

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find
what's the greater good that we that we

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can contribute to a society in crisis
so i want to ask you about a particular

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conversation you know i've talked a
little bit about this before and you've

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you've been in conversations about this
conversation i've been an important uh

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uh player in the conversation it seems
to me and that's

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monuments in in this country as as part
of our uh our racial issues problems

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discussion um
the issue of monuments has has become

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monumental i feel pardon that pun uh and
a lot of monuments are being torn down

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and and
i will i will stipulate that some

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deserve to be uh we want
i'll only mention let's say nathan

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bedford forest i'd i'd help to
tear his statue down anywhere but um but

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one of the one of the conversations
which you've been involved in is in

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washington dc uh and lincoln park about
lincoln the statue of lincoln and the

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enslaved man uh who's rising off his
knees but is on his knees

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and the the sort of paternalistic uh
view of that

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um
frederick douglass was there when when

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the statue was dedicated and he talked
about

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uh the ambiguous meanings ambiguity is
also uh an important word for you

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uh
how how do we how do we preserve

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what was great in american history and i
i think we would probably agree that

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lincoln
lincoln represents the best of us but

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also
understand the flaws and the the

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problematics
what's your view of what we should do

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with that statute we've done some things
already but

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but i mean i i would think that first of
all what we have to do

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as a learning organization to help
people

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understand that we've learned more over
time and that

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statues are frozen moments in history
and they reflect the moment they were

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created and that there's really an
opportunity to sort of build on that so

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i you've heard me say this many times i
believe in pruning of statues um i

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believe it's important that there are
some statues we agree very much on

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forest but you know there are some
statues that have to go

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partly to make room for new statues for
new issues that people are interested in

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obviously more diverse i'm always struck
by how few statues there are of women in

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this country
and how important it would be to sort of

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create that balance but i think also
what i would argue is that statues and

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monuments are also wonderful learning
opportunities i think the notion of

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contextualizing some of these statues
and especially the lincoln statute

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for me i know there are a lot of people
in dc who say take it down but for me i

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think it really gets at
both an understanding of how attitudes

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of race were in 1865
how they've changed over time but how

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you have to recognize that you have to
give someone like lincoln his do

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in terms of sort of helping to change
the nation but tell people understand

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that that change came as a part because
african americans were demanding that

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change running away from being enslaved
frederick douglass talking to lincoln so

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really helping people understand that
it's much more complex than simply um

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one statue and i think that while it's
hard to contextualize because you see

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the big statue what i've been struck by
as i look at these statues is that

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people are looking both at the statute
but looking to try to understand it

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because even though we think they do
they don't and so if we could offer

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contextualization if we could offer
alternative statues that just oppose um

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with lincoln then i think we're really
helping people learn and i think that

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you know you've used the word that i
care a lot about i think that the most

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important thing we can do as cultural
institutions as learning institutions

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has really helped the public become more
comfortable with ambiguity as a nation

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we really look for simple answers to
complex questions and you see where

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that's gotten us i think that what you
want to do is help people understand the

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shades of gray the nuance the debates i
think if we could do that regardless of

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what history what culture
we're teaching people what's important

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is if you can get people to grapple with
complexity then we'd be a better nation

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i i i couldn't agree with you more and i
think within that context it's still

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possible to have our our heroes um i
think you know preserve the statues of

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lincoln but but but let's let's build
some new statues as you said you know

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we can we can we can move on and and add
uh to our uh

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there is change there's always change my
theory of change theory of change is a

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big big world and a big word in our
world and and i have a theory of change

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it happens
and it seems to me that

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you talked about women and not having
having many statues which is so true the

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the the mystifying thing to me is why
there isn't a statue of harriet tubman

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you know in every in every city you know
there's there's a woman who put her life

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on the line over and over and over again
uh

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uneducated uh
you know

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poor uh herself
and an escaped uh slave etc etc and it's

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an extraordinary story her story is so
extraordinary and and it seems to me we

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we can go out and find our heroes uh at
the local level i mean have have

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conversations at the local level
america 250 is coming up the celebration

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of the the 250th anniversary of the
declaration it seems to me one of the

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things we could do the imls at the
smithsonian and our national uh

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institutions is
work with

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local institutions to find their heroes
and help build monuments either verbally

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or
physically uh to to the local heroes who

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deserve it
you know i think as a historian i was

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made better by working with local
communities by working with living

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living communities right so that um i
would argue that when we think about

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this upcoming celebration commemoration
it'll be really important to think about

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what what was 1776
like in what was spanish california what

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was it like in detroit with the french
influence what what was it like in

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different parts of the country so you
begin to see

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the changing notions of freedom um and
you get a sense of the broadest

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diversity of this country i think that
to be able to to say that part of what

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happens with the commemoration of the
declaration of independence is really

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freeing all the stories we didn't tell
before

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um allowing monuments of women and
people of color um you know this little

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town i grew up in new jersey we've
discovered that there was a significant

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chinese-american population that came in
the late 19th early 20th century to work

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in one of the factories nobody knows
about that that should be that should be

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celebrated somewhere in that local
community and so i think that

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we could
not we're not asking to forget paul

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revere we're not asking to forget the
founding fathers we are asking that you

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understand who they were their strengths
and their limitations and what blind

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spots they had on issues of maybe race
and gender but we're also saying that

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we're a better country when we really
make sure that we're celebrating a

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variety of people a variety of issues in
a way that helps us better understand

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who we once were
and who we can become

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well you're so right about the the
the recontextualization of our history i

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mean
slavery didn't start

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in 1619
you know

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to begin with it existed among native
american cultures but but also uh the

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spanish hit
what is today the united states well in

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advance of of the anglo uh uh presence
and i i love the story of estevan eco or

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esteban uh that who was moroccan i
believe

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originally he's african um uh uh the
slave uh enslaved man um who

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became an important part of the
expedition and man may have been the

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first person from of european or
more or less european background who

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made it into uh the interior in new
mexico maybe as conceivably he'd he

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probably died in new mexico but
conceivably as far as kansas um the

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whole idea of el dorado uh
essentially came from from him and

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coronado and et cetera and that's all
before

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what we typically this you know 1607
1619

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etc uh think of as the as the origins of
the united states

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you put your finger on such an important
point because it seems to me i remember

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when i first began to write about
california history um and suddenly

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learned about you know
i was thought history went east to west

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well in california it went south to
north right and so it changes the way

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you think about things i i i would love
for this 250th commemoration uh of the

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declaration to really say
how do you understand

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what it was like in french northwest how
do you understand what it meant in

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spanish florida how do you begin to
understand how that all came together

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and that in essence the great strength
has not been a recent discovery of

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diversity but a long history of diverse
people grappling trying to figure out

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how to get along with each other
sometimes trying to figure along how to

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control each other but ultimately it's
an amazing story that really deserves

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much greater attention
well

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and
and if we could if we could share find

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ways to share this history
it becomes

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everybody's history once once we have a
conversation about it once we talk about

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it and understand that it's how we got
where we are today you have a great

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story in a fool's errand your your your
great memoir of building the national

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museum of african american history and
culture um about listening to your

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father and his friends talk
and how you wanted to participate in

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that conversation and ultimately was
about

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baseball
which you weren't all that interested in

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but it became something you you you
wanted to be interested in because they

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were talking about it
yeah and

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it seems to me that you know that
you you you throughout the book the full

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full zero which is a great book so i
everyone you know i'm told by my staff i

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can't i can't highlight something a
commercial purchase but i'd say if you

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can find a fool's errand one way or
another in a library or a bookstore it's

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a great book
um but

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00:26:42.080 --> 00:26:47.600
you you talk about a lot of subjects
that we all have in common in their

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history so jazz music in general uh food
uh you know how important the cafe is at

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the national museum of african american
history and culture and and um we share

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00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.320
those things and and it seem it seems to
me conversations about that about their

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history about where they come from great
african-american culture

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you know who or or or the debates who
came first chuck berry or elvis you know

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well
they both elvis and chuck berry had a

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view of that and it was kind of
complex and ambiguous too

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um the shared conversation that we're
that we're not having as often as we

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ought to have
i i think that

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what i felt strongly throughout my
career but also with my colleagues

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building the nationality of
african-american history and culture was

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that it was important for us to build a
place that on the one hand allowed you

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to dig deeply into african-american
culture to understand those hidden

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stories to understand the pain but to
understand the resiliency to understand

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the joy but on the other hand it was how
do you make sure people understand that

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this is everybody's culture that this is
a story that has shaped us all um and so

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that to me is the challenge and it's the
great challenge but it's a great

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opportunity to help people say you know
even though i never lived in the south

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or my family never lived in the south i
realized that we were shaped by slavery

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um although i never lived in california
we were shaped by the latino culture and

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so the goal here is that
30 or 40 years ago we would be satisfied

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by saying
that these individuals also existed that

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you could rep yet you can embrace a
black community or a latino community

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but now i think the challenge is to say
these individuals these communities are

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also the communities that shaped us
they've shaped our notions of freedom

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they've shaped our notions of culture um
so that in essence what i hope people

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will say is that
i am made better because i now better

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understand myself by embracing the
diversity of this nation

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you know i
growing up in kansas city and both as a

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00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:06.320
banker before i became a librarian as a
librarian very involved in 18th and vine

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and the negro leagues baseball museum
the jazz museum american jazz museum the

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black archives of mid-america
and uh and i wanted to bring when i was

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00:29:14.399 --> 00:29:17.919
a librarian i wanted to bring a guy
named tim blanet you might know him as a

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00:29:17.919 --> 00:29:23.440
historian a great 18th century story the
great 18th century historian in my in my

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view
um

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of europe and uh so i sent him an email
and i said if you're ever in the united

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states would you come to uh to kansas
city to speak in the library

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um he had written a book about the uh
music the history of music which i which

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00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.480
i particularly like which is about the
rise of the concert is a democratic

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thing
and uh so uh he said i can't come

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00:29:44.159 --> 00:29:47.600
because my doctors won't let me he said
i've always wanted to come to kansas

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city because i grew up listening to
charlie parker and i know about 18th and

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00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:57.279
vine and i thought you know
that's so extraordinary and and we

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everybody in kansas city ought to
everybody in the united states ought to

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00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:06.399
share that same joy in in
music that started in kansas city

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00:30:06.399 --> 00:30:11.520
started in the poor african-american
community in uh in kansas city uh and

400
00:30:11.520 --> 00:30:15.679
and it seems
that sharing that culture um is is

401
00:30:15.679 --> 00:30:20.320
something that that that museums do uh
so well

402
00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:23.679
so
um and another uh

403
00:30:23.679 --> 00:30:27.679
example of this in in my life that is
also important in your life is john hope

404
00:30:27.679 --> 00:30:32.320
franklin
um and and you talk about how important

405
00:30:32.320 --> 00:30:37.200
um his statement of seeking the
unvarnished truth uh

406
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.000
was
it is you i think he chaired your uh

407
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:43.440
your scholarship advisory committee when
you're building the

408
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.559
national museum
and i i heard him we brought him to the

409
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:49.120
library and
and

410
00:30:49.120 --> 00:30:52.559
and he had a conversation
with me

411
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.480
but more importantly with the audience
that was one of the most extraordinary

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00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:00.880
moments in uh in in my life because he
talked about tulsa

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00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.880
um
and his his father had just moved to

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00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:10.080
tulsa something like two or three days
before the riots before the the massacre

415
00:31:10.080 --> 00:31:15.039
um and they were going to move he was
going to move uh uh with him his mother

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00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:19.600
and his brothers and sisters too uh and
couldn't and didn't know if his father

417
00:31:19.600 --> 00:31:24.880
was still alive for a while
um and later he became a

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00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:29.840
part of the commission that uh looked at
reparations for that etc um

419
00:31:29.840 --> 00:31:35.120
and but the most important thing about
it to me was the amazing conversation he

420
00:31:35.120 --> 00:31:38.960
had i asked him three questions in an
hour-long conversation

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00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:42.480
um and he just went and he told these
incredible stories but then the audience

422
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:46.480
asked him questions
and his engagement with the audience and

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00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.840
it was i think which was about half
white half black

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00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:53.279
and
um it was a transformational experience

425
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:58.240
having that conversation with someone
you could relate to and who related to

426
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:02.159
this
important terrible moment in american

427
00:32:02.159 --> 00:32:07.120
history in in a personal way and also in
a reparative way

428
00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:11.120
he was an extraordinary man
i'm just i i think having a conversation

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00:32:11.120 --> 00:32:14.480
with someone like john hope franklin
changes your view of the world

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00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:18.159
absolutely i mean i can you know he was
the chair of the scholarly advisory body

431
00:32:18.159 --> 00:32:23.039
of the museum so i would sit next to him
in these meetings sort of every quarter

432
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:27.279
and you know he would just whisper
things in my ear about how important it

433
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:32.240
was to tell the unvarnished truth
because he felt the american public had

434
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:35.039
a
tolerance for it if it wasn't done in a

435
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.640
certain way that isn't about pointing
fingers or guilt it's about sort of

436
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:42.960
understanding who you are and what i
used to love about him is he used to say

437
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.600
to me when you build this museum
what's important is to make sure that

438
00:32:47.600 --> 00:32:52.720
people are touched in a way that they
can be changed um and so i've always

439
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:56.720
sort of loved those moments with john
hope where he would sort of whisper

440
00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:01.279
about this historical moment or that but
what i think what was so powerful about

441
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:04.880
john hope was
he really was one of the first people to

442
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:10.559
recognize that african-american culture
that latino culture are really wonderful

443
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:15.679
mirrors on america um that they tell us
so much about who we are beyond the

444
00:33:15.679 --> 00:33:20.399
story of individual community and so i
just think that we were so fortunate to

445
00:33:20.399 --> 00:33:25.600
have someone like john hope both as a
gifted scholar but as somebody who as

446
00:33:25.600 --> 00:33:31.200
his life evolved was able to
convey that history in a way that was

447
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:35.519
moving that was meaningful and can be
that could be transformative

448
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:39.279
right yeah
he was an incredibly empathetic man but

449
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:43.760
an empathetic man who never
ever abandoned the truth the the truth

450
00:33:43.760 --> 00:33:47.039
is he saw it and of course he was a
great historian

451
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.320
um
so i wanted now i want to shift gears

452
00:33:50.320 --> 00:33:54.240
just a little bit and i want to talk a
little bit about the liberal arts uh and

453
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:58.559
your view of that in the in the museum
and library world and the life of the

454
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.840
life of american culture
at one point

455
00:34:01.840 --> 00:34:05.919
you you said um
let literature we should let literature

456
00:34:05.919 --> 00:34:10.320
be the voice of history
and i i want to ask you about that and

457
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:14.399
ask you a little bit about the books
that you think are important for us in

458
00:34:14.399 --> 00:34:18.720
in our in in the nation's life the
literature that you think is important

459
00:34:18.720 --> 00:34:23.679
in the uh in the nation's life
well you know i am a firm believer i'm

460
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:28.399
the son of two teachers so obviously the
written word and spoken word very

461
00:34:28.399 --> 00:34:32.839
important in my house and what i
realized is that

462
00:34:32.839 --> 00:34:39.520
literature and film to be honest were
really wonderful ways to convey history

463
00:34:39.520 --> 00:34:44.159
in a way that um literature would allow
you to sort of have you know

464
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:48.480
conversations with unseen generations
film would bring

465
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:52.079
history and culture to life
they weren't all good films but they

466
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:57.359
would bring history and culture to life
and so for me what i really believed in

467
00:34:57.359 --> 00:35:06.240
is the power of education the power of
words and really the the power of

468
00:35:06.240 --> 00:35:09.440
our ability to
um

469
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:14.160
grapple with our differences based on
our ability to use different lenses

470
00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:18.320
whether it was literature or film and i
have to be honest one of the things i'm

471
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.359
proudest of in the african american
museum

472
00:35:21.359 --> 00:35:26.960
is the amount of literature the amount
of words quotations that are on those

473
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:32.800
walls that really counter the notion
that people don't speak the people don't

474
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.760
convey these important issues and that i
really wanted one anything else is to

475
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:44.480
use museums and libraries
to reduce great history to human scale

476
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:49.520
um so that people will not be saying
we're looking at migration or we're

477
00:35:49.520 --> 00:35:54.160
looking at work but rather how did that
play out in the lives of a particular

478
00:35:54.160 --> 00:35:59.599
family or an individual so i wanted
people to sort of not be able to

479
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:04.560
walk away but i wanted people to see
themselves in these individual stories

480
00:36:04.560 --> 00:36:10.480
and so that was why for me literature
and film allowed me to help help me

481
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:14.720
learn these things in a way that reduced
it so that i could understand it and see

482
00:36:14.720 --> 00:36:19.200
our common humanity
so and and and the visual is is so

483
00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:23.760
important uh in your uh view of the of
the world and

484
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.800
and and
at one point you've talked to a number

485
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:30.480
of points you've talked about the
the things in the collection at the

486
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.320
smithsonian uh that are important to you
and the things that

487
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:39.119
some some of which you brought such as
the greensboro the woolworth uh counter

488
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.520
greens from greensboro um which has that
human scale that you're talking you know

489
00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:48.400
we can all imagine ourselves
sitting at that at that counter i mean i

490
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:52.000
i my father
always took me to shraps in new york we

491
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:56.240
went to new york but but i i get the
woolworth experienced uh along with that

492
00:36:56.240 --> 00:36:59.920
which traps wasn't open we went to
woolworth um

493
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:06.560
and and the the scale of of that or um
the other the other object that's one of

494
00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:09.680
your favorite objects is also one of my
favorite objects in the world i think

495
00:37:09.680 --> 00:37:13.599
it's it's one of the two or three great
pieces of sculpture and that's the

496
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.800
augustus saint-gaudens
um

497
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:20.800
sculpture that he did for henry adams
after henry adam's wife died it's

498
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:26.400
essentially a memorial
to clover at adams i didn't have a title

499
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:31.359
and adams at one point i i think you
quote this uh i

500
00:37:31.359 --> 00:37:35.839
wrote to uh someone who wanted to know
what the title was and said

501
00:37:35.839 --> 00:37:38.000
the
the sculptor

502
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.359
saint gardens didn't want to give it a
title because he wanted it to be a

503
00:37:41.359 --> 00:37:45.359
question not an answer
which i i think is a i think that's a

504
00:37:45.359 --> 00:37:50.160
fabulous way of describing what a museum
can do which is to give you a question

505
00:37:50.160 --> 00:37:54.640
about the world that you have to answer
you have to work through what the uh

506
00:37:54.640 --> 00:37:59.359
what the answer is well in a way one of
the things that museums and libraries do

507
00:37:59.359 --> 00:38:05.280
that i love is the best of these
ask you to work you know they ask you to

508
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:10.480
grapple with questions and and
understand this literature um because i

509
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.240
think that you know we're made better
when we work a bit and when you go

510
00:38:14.240 --> 00:38:18.160
through the african-american museum you
work a bit um because i thought it was

511
00:38:18.160 --> 00:38:22.320
important for you to engage
for me the most important things that

512
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:26.160
museums do
is yes they are places of wonder there

513
00:38:26.160 --> 00:38:32.560
are places of inspiration um but they
also should be a place where i find the

514
00:38:32.560 --> 00:38:38.880
opportunity to challenge myself and to
challenge the nation and so i love when

515
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:43.920
a museum asks me
to work hard i love when i and one of

516
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:49.440
the things i miss to be honest is as we
now you know type in what book we want

517
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:52.960
to see i
miss walking through the stacks of

518
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:57.280
libraries right and just sort of seeing
a book and say i would have never pulled

519
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:03.280
this out and here i am discovering and
so for me that sense of discovery is

520
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:06.720
something we have to protect at all
costs

521
00:39:06.720 --> 00:39:10.000
yeah
and amen to that you know one of the

522
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:14.079
people i think is something of an
inspirational hero to you is to to me

523
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:19.599
and anybody in the library world and
museum world should be john cotton dana

524
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.280
who who was the great defender of the
idea of the openstack

525
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:28.000
um who is the great defender of the idea
that every community has got a history

526
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:32.960
and objects from that history tangible
things that are important he was in

527
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:36.960
favor of every library having a museum
which of course you know at turn of the

528
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:40.640
19th and 20th century there were a lot
of libraries including kansas city

529
00:39:40.640 --> 00:39:44.560
public library uh as an example that
created museums

530
00:39:44.560 --> 00:39:49.520
um yeah and uh and and it was usually
about important objects

531
00:39:49.520 --> 00:39:54.640
that relate to who we are in our
community i one of the great objects

532
00:39:54.640 --> 00:39:59.599
that you talk about um in
the national museum of african-american

533
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:03.599
uh history and culture is the tin wallet
yeah

534
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:09.119
yeah and and that you know that it's so
tangible it's small it's so tangible

535
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:12.800
anybody could have
done this or but it also has just so

536
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:18.480
much larger meaning you might
well in some ways i'm

537
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:23.520
my career has been shaped by john condan
right his notion was

538
00:40:23.520 --> 00:40:28.240
fit the museum to the community needs
right and so that led me to thinking how

539
00:40:28.240 --> 00:40:34.800
do i find the stories that might seem
small but are really large like the chin

540
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:40.800
wallet this was um a man uh named joseph
trammell who gained his freedom in the

541
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:46.560
1850s and with his freedom came that
freedom paper that document and he

542
00:40:46.560 --> 00:40:50.960
recognized that if he lost that or if it
was destroyed it could destroy his whole

543
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:55.839
life so he built this he made what he
called a handmade tin wall kind of an

544
00:40:55.839 --> 00:41:00.000
ugly little box but he would put it in
that box and carry it with him to make

545
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.400
sure it wasn't destroyed or by
perspiration or anything and then every

546
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:08.480
night he would go back to his house he
would take it out of the tin wallet

547
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:13.200
according to the family and he would
talk about the power of freedom the

548
00:41:13.200 --> 00:41:17.119
importance of freedom the fragility of
freedom and for me

549
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:25.119
that small tin case really became
emblematic of a nation's grappling with

550
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:30.400
freedom a community's desire to
understand and embrace freedom in a way

551
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:36.319
it was always a reminder to me
to never take freedom for granted

552
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:40.880
you know uh dana was attacked for for
for trying

553
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:45.520
for playing too small that the libraries
and museums should be about greece and

554
00:41:45.520 --> 00:41:51.680
rome uh you know the the renaissance etc
and and and and and one of the things

555
00:41:51.680 --> 00:41:56.160
that he said was but you know these
objects in this community connect to

556
00:41:56.160 --> 00:42:00.079
that and they connect to it through
those important words like freedom

557
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:06.960
for equality
work or courage or justice uh and and uh

558
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:10.319
and and it seems to me that
that's the the

559
00:42:10.319 --> 00:42:15.920
the important thing that uh that that we
can do as museum or library leaders um

560
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:21.760
is is relate the the day-to-day life uh
in the community to those larger most

561
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:26.000
important things that we all agree on i
mean the the difference between uh

562
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:29.359
america and many other countries and you
talk a little bit about this is that

563
00:42:29.359 --> 00:42:33.359
we're really an idea
we're based on it on an idea and we

564
00:42:33.359 --> 00:42:38.720
haven't lived up to the ideals behind
those ideas all the time but we have

565
00:42:38.720 --> 00:42:44.400
those ideals and we share those ideals
isn't that the most powerful thing right

566
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:49.920
that we can look at these words and the
declaration in the constitution these

567
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:54.480
founding documents and yes there are
many stories that are not there the many

568
00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:00.480
words that aren't there but they give us
something to aspire to um and so i've

569
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:04.160
always argued one of the great strengths
of the civil rights movement for example

570
00:43:04.160 --> 00:43:08.319
was simply saying live up to your stated
ideals that's what we're really asking

571
00:43:08.319 --> 00:43:13.599
you to do um and so for me that is
really powerful to sort of say the

572
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.880
country has always been a work in
progress

573
00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:21.359
and so therefore what's important is
that we have to challenge we have to

574
00:43:21.359 --> 00:43:26.160
prod we have to push we have to come
together to help a country live up to

575
00:43:26.160 --> 00:43:31.599
its stated ideals i think there is
nothing wrong with aspiring to be

576
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:36.400
the best of what america says it is
you know aspiration is really

577
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:42.000
important and you have a great story uh
in your book in your own family it's

578
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.480
about your mother
um

579
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:49.599
that's about aspiration um and
she some of your friends you're you're

580
00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:52.800
at home with some of your friends and
she goes around the

581
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:56.480
table and asks each one of them what do
they want to do uh where do they want to

582
00:43:56.480 --> 00:44:00.160
go to college
etc

583
00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:03.599
and and they give their answers and then
she turns to you

584
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:07.520
and she asks you
what are you going to do after graduate

585
00:44:07.520 --> 00:44:12.400
school after graduate school
and um

586
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:16.240
you know her expectations you have
another great phrase in in in the book

587
00:44:16.240 --> 00:44:20.839
that that seems to me is a you know
a tremendous

588
00:44:20.839 --> 00:44:25.760
uh reason
the power behind your success in the

589
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:31.599
world which is that your mother's
expectations you say we're both a gift

590
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:36.160
burden
which i think is just a is a fabulous

591
00:44:36.160 --> 00:44:40.480
phrase and and i i think that's
you know i look at our country and i

592
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:44.880
think our country is a gift and
and a burden and and if you want to play

593
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:49.200
a civic role in in the world which you
do and i do and and

594
00:44:49.200 --> 00:44:51.839
and and many people do
uh

595
00:44:51.839 --> 00:44:55.599
um it's a gift
in this country to be able to do that

596
00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:00.079
it's also a burden because of our
history uh and an opportunity because of

597
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.280
our history
but that that opportunity is what is i

598
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:08.319
think so important um you know i i
remember early on in my career people

599
00:45:08.319 --> 00:45:13.839
would say to me you're too political um
and i would say if helping to make a

600
00:45:13.839 --> 00:45:18.240
country better help it live to its
ideals is political then i'm political

601
00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:21.839
but boy that's the kind of politics i
want to see

602
00:45:21.839 --> 00:45:26.560
well and you know it's uh
we're we're about debate in this country

603
00:45:26.560 --> 00:45:31.520
we've been about debate since the since
the the beginning and uh we're

604
00:45:31.520 --> 00:45:37.839
you know true true inclusion in includes
all all all voices in the uh in in in

605
00:45:37.839 --> 00:45:41.760
the debate uh and if you do it face to
face you learn

606
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:47.119
you learn something about people's
motivations and and uh which are usually

607
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:50.000
pretty pretty close to your own
motivations they may have a different

608
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:53.839
way to get there uh but they're trying
trying to get us

609
00:45:53.839 --> 00:46:00.720
get us to the next place uh as a better
place for all of us uh i find um well

610
00:46:00.720 --> 00:46:05.599
um
what i do before we turn to questions i

611
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:09.920
i do want to ask you a little bit more
about your family because i think it's

612
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:16.720
so important in in your history and it
your your view of the world which i i i

613
00:46:16.720 --> 00:46:22.720
share and admire it it is about all of
us as a family and your your lonnie

614
00:46:22.720 --> 00:46:27.040
bunch iii and and
your father and your mother your

615
00:46:27.040 --> 00:46:31.119
grandfather it's a great picture of your
grandmother in the book um

616
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:33.359
uh
yeah

617
00:46:33.359 --> 00:46:37.599
talk a little bit about the bunch family
the bunch of bunches that you come from

618
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:41.680
well you know
what i'm always struck by is how an

619
00:46:41.680 --> 00:46:46.240
individual or a couple can change the
trajectory of the family you know my

620
00:46:46.240 --> 00:46:50.319
grandfather lonnie bunch senior was a
sharecropper and didn't want to be a

621
00:46:50.319 --> 00:46:54.960
sharecropper and he and my grandmother
found ways for him to go to college at

622
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:59.760
night at shaw college for almost 10
years and then for whatever reason he

623
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:04.400
wanted to be a dentist and he had to go
he had no money so he went to new jersey

624
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:08.640
and in those days they had what they
called rolling chairs and he pushed

625
00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:14.560
people around um to make money and he
you know basically opened a dental

626
00:47:14.560 --> 00:47:19.280
practice and was a dentist for you know
40 years and what i realized is that

627
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:23.040
that changed the trajectory but as my
father used to say

628
00:47:23.040 --> 00:47:27.760
we had no right as lonnie bunch junior
in the third to complain because this

629
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:31.440
guy was a sharecropper it took him 10
years to go through college my father

630
00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:35.119
used to always say when he was a kid he
would say you know to his father boy i

631
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:40.079
can't do this and his father would say
yes you can um i work so you wouldn't

632
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:46.000
have to chop cotton and so i've always
lived with that desire to sort of

633
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:52.160
make my grandparents smile that that
their efforts their sacrifice

634
00:47:52.160 --> 00:47:56.240
really shaped who i am and that i worked
hard

635
00:47:56.240 --> 00:47:59.359
to help others
have the lives that i know my

636
00:47:59.359 --> 00:48:04.400
grandparents wanted for me
it's a great in in itself an

637
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:09.839
inspirational story so i elizabeth do we
have uh some questions from from the

638
00:48:09.839 --> 00:48:15.280
audience before we go away
we do and and i'll start by just noting

639
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.440
that there's been lots of thanks for
both of you in the chat

640
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.800
barbara
commentator puts forth that this is a

641
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:26.720
conversation every american
should witness

642
00:48:26.720 --> 00:48:31.839
um so there's a there's a comment from
her as well and a question

643
00:48:31.839 --> 00:48:36.800
secretary bunch you had spoken about how
museums challenge visitors to think and

644
00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:39.920
reflect on issues through personal
stories

645
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:44.800
and her question is about how to better
engage people in spontaneous

646
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:49.920
conversations in museums because on
tours sometimes there's only one person

647
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:55.680
who asks a question and and no one
responds or joins in how can we

648
00:48:55.680 --> 00:49:00.160
help museums encourage their communities
to talk

649
00:49:00.160 --> 00:49:04.640
i think some of it has to do when you're
creating exhibitions think of those

650
00:49:04.640 --> 00:49:08.400
spaces where you
know that people will be able to engage

651
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:13.119
and would want to engage so that whether
it's you know a specific artifact in the

652
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:17.440
african-american museum was putting some
material from harriet tubman that really

653
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:23.359
would get people to talk about not just
her but issues of gender and freedom um

654
00:49:23.359 --> 00:49:27.520
there was a spot that i would ask people
to stop in front of a cabin that housed

655
00:49:27.520 --> 00:49:31.440
the enslaved and to tell the story that
um

656
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:36.319
here was something that when it was the
home of the enslave there was one door

657
00:49:36.319 --> 00:49:40.960
in but when freedom came they
immediately put a second door so that

658
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:44.400
having a second door was a concrete
manifestation of freedom

659
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:48.960
those moments then allowed people to
engage and talk and there were many

660
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:53.680
times i've seen people um
i guess the best example is

661
00:49:53.680 --> 00:49:58.240
the emmett till casket that we have in
the museum i have seen people of all

662
00:49:58.240 --> 00:50:02.720
races ask each other can they cry
together because they want to share that

663
00:50:02.720 --> 00:50:07.280
pain and they want to build on that to
help a country be made better so i think

664
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:13.400
it's i think it's intentionality is part
of the way to do this

665
00:50:16.640 --> 00:50:21.359
that's great we do have a a couple more
questions in our time remaining

666
00:50:21.359 --> 00:50:24.720
um
we going back to the issue

667
00:50:24.720 --> 00:50:28.480
secretary bunche you mentioned this

668
00:50:28.640 --> 00:50:34.240
pruning of the confederate statues that
has been reoccurring in the news

669
00:50:34.240 --> 00:50:37.680
recently
a question asks

670
00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:41.200
what do you think should happen to the
statues that have been taken down since

671
00:50:41.200 --> 00:50:45.200
there's been a lot of discussion about
this where should they go and

672
00:50:45.200 --> 00:50:51.920
how and should they be interpreted
well you know i've been really struck by

673
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:58.800
um what i saw in budapest when they
removed russian statues or soviet-era

674
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:03.440
statues and put them in a park and they
were then interpreted because the notion

675
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:07.920
was that if you simply erase all the
statues you're erasing some of the

676
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:13.280
history um but if you then interpret
that so people understand that so when

677
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:17.359
mitch landrieu who is somebody the
former mayor of new orleans who i have

678
00:51:17.359 --> 00:51:21.680
great respect for he and i talked about
it and when he removed confederate

679
00:51:21.680 --> 00:51:26.800
statues he found a warehouse where
people can go in look at those and have

680
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:32.559
it interpreted so i would argue that um
even with the pruning i would love to

681
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:36.480
see some of these preserved
i've always thought that in the

682
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:40.319
african-american museum we should have
some statues but they're awfully heavy

683
00:51:40.319 --> 00:51:45.119
so i hadn't planned on those but uh i
just think that the notion is that give

684
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:50.160
people an opportunity to see how these
are part of the culture that has shaped

685
00:51:50.160 --> 00:51:54.319
them but help them understand what are
the blind spots within that

686
00:51:54.319 --> 00:51:57.119
interpretation

687
00:51:59.680 --> 00:52:02.400
another question elizabeth is there
anything

688
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:07.920
we do a question from daniel um
secretary bunch again you had spoke of

689
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:13.359
trying to make the nation a better place
and earlier museums and libraries roles

690
00:52:13.359 --> 00:52:16.400
in
engaging with their communities so how

691
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:21.760
do we address community involvement uh
in you know this polarizing time in our

692
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:25.520
nation how do we
um address individuals in our

693
00:52:25.520 --> 00:52:30.640
communities that you know
may be willfully ignorant or you know

694
00:52:30.640 --> 00:52:36.240
unable to be swayed
well i think first of all the notion is

695
00:52:36.240 --> 00:52:40.079
you only sway people when you can engage
them when you can bring them into the

696
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:45.040
debate so that um creating opportunities
um that

697
00:52:45.040 --> 00:52:48.800
intentionally bring people of different
points of view together because they

698
00:52:48.800 --> 00:52:54.480
trust the library because they trust the
museum um is there risk absolutely but i

699
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:57.599
was really struck by
um

700
00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:02.720
there was a time when i remember being
part of a project that brought in senior

701
00:53:02.720 --> 00:53:07.680
citizens of different political points
of view to engage with young kids over

702
00:53:07.680 --> 00:53:13.040
literature and it was amazing how people
debated but they came together as a

703
00:53:13.040 --> 00:53:18.160
group because they trusted what the
library was able to do so i think that

704
00:53:18.160 --> 00:53:23.280
the key is that there are strategies to
do this it's not something one does

705
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:28.880
without intentionality recognizing what
this means but i would argue the reward

706
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:33.040
is greater than the risk
the risk is oh you might be identified

707
00:53:33.040 --> 00:53:38.640
as being political but the reward is
there are very few places where people

708
00:53:38.640 --> 00:53:44.720
cross political racial and gender lines
museums and libraries are those places

709
00:53:44.720 --> 00:53:48.160
so let us take advantage of that
opportunity

710
00:53:48.160 --> 00:53:51.760
you you mentioned uh emmett till before
and and

711
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:55.280
we had in kansas city an example of what
you're talking about

712
00:53:55.280 --> 00:53:58.640
that was built around emmett till
there's a man named alvin sykes in

713
00:53:58.640 --> 00:54:04.400
kansas city who passed away this uh this
year um who was a community activist

714
00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:08.800
he became involved eighth grade
education a musician african-american

715
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:13.760
uh and he became involved in the emmett
till bill and the campaign

716
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:18.800
he was a key part of the campaign simeon
wright uh was it was very close to him

717
00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:22.319
um
to to to get the bill passed that

718
00:54:22.319 --> 00:54:25.839
created the cold case section of the
civil rights division of the justice

719
00:54:25.839 --> 00:54:31.280
department and looked at
all the older uh unprosecuted uh or

720
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:35.520
failed prosecution cases civil rights
cases

721
00:54:35.520 --> 00:54:40.160
and the key moment for for him and for
passage of the bill was convincing tom

722
00:54:40.160 --> 00:54:44.160
coburn who was a senator who was
probably the most conservative member of

723
00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:50.559
the senate uh to take away his fiscal
block on funding on funding the

724
00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:53.680
bill
and he alvin did that by sitting in his

725
00:54:53.680 --> 00:54:57.760
office for about six weeks
uh until until covent would talk to him

726
00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:02.319
but we brought coburn and alvin
to the library to have a conversation

727
00:55:02.319 --> 00:55:05.680
they had a conversation about how this
happened

728
00:55:05.680 --> 00:55:09.040
and
and basically it came down to tom coburn

729
00:55:09.040 --> 00:55:13.280
actually you this incredibly
conservative guy used the word love

730
00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:16.480
about alvin sykes this community
activist

731
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:21.680
um uh that that he found love in in
alvin psych's soul and i i'll tell you

732
00:55:21.680 --> 00:55:27.359
there was not a dry eye in an audience
of about 300 people mixed audience in

733
00:55:27.359 --> 00:55:32.319
in kansas city missouri listening to
this and it's that kind of conversation

734
00:55:32.319 --> 00:55:37.680
which is about human beings being human
um that that that museums and libraries

735
00:55:37.680 --> 00:55:43.920
can do and and it's very hard to find a
place for those conversations today

736
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:48.760
but that's our challenge and that's our
opportunity

737
00:55:49.359 --> 00:55:51.760
elizabeth
do we have another

738
00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:56.640
question we have one last question we
can end on and then we can go ahead and

739
00:55:56.640 --> 00:56:00.400
wrap up right in the hour
so we'll end with um

740
00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:04.480
this discussion about uh
diverse cultures in our nation there are

741
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:08.400
so many different experiences and
stories

742
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:11.359
from communities in our nation both now
and

743
00:56:11.359 --> 00:56:16.319
throughout our history
and how do we embrace and uplift diverse

744
00:56:16.319 --> 00:56:22.000
cultures and stories without stepping
into an area of cultural appropriation

745
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:26.400
well you know part of the challenge of
cultural appropriation is not talking to

746
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:30.559
the cultures that you really want to
explore and so i think the notion of

747
00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:34.799
finding the kind of collaborations the
kind of partnerships

748
00:56:34.799 --> 00:56:38.559
that would allow people to feel
comfortable that you're sharing their

749
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:43.119
culture you're sharing their story in a
way that's respectful i was always

750
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:48.319
struck early in my career i got to know
a man named tom mckay at the wisconsin

751
00:56:48.319 --> 00:56:53.200
historical society who went around
wisconsin and worked with diverse

752
00:56:53.200 --> 00:56:58.799
communities and got them to engage with
each other um in a way that changed the

753
00:56:58.799 --> 00:57:04.799
way wisconsin's history was explored and
so i've always thought that that is work

754
00:57:04.799 --> 00:57:09.520
it's difficult it's challenging what it
really means is for this to work you've

755
00:57:09.520 --> 00:57:13.920
got to have a long-term mutually
reciprocal relationship it's not one

756
00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:20.079
exhibit it's not one public program it's
a really it's a commitment to um that

757
00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:24.880
being part of the lifeblood of a
cultural institution would be a museum

758
00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:27.839
or a library

759
00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:30.640
i think
that's a great place

760
00:57:30.640 --> 00:57:35.599
to to end so um
lonnie i want to thank you so much for

761
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:40.240
for for this conversation uh
it's inspirational you are an

762
00:57:40.240 --> 00:57:45.599
inspirational leader in the cultural
world of uh of this of this country and

763
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:50.160
i'll say to uh to use your your words
about uh about your mother uh but

764
00:57:50.160 --> 00:57:55.920
transpose them a little bit you're a
gift not a burden thank you very much

765
00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:59.839
thank you so much i really appreciate
this

766
00:57:59.839 --> 00:58:04.480
thank you everyone and as a reminder
this event will be recorded and that the

767
00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:08.880
chat and the the transcript
will be available for closed captioning

768
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:14.480
as well thank you so much at this time
we'll end the webinar take care everyone

769
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:18.920
mommy thank you thank you