WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en

1
00:00:01.920 --> 00:00:07.120
with our friends out there
streaming land well uh good day everyone

2
00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:11.360
uh i'm crosby kemper i'm the director of
the institute of museum and library

3
00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.360
services of the federal government
federal support for libraries and

4
00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:18.640
museums
and this is the second in a series of

5
00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:23.279
conversations on the arts and humanities
in libraries and museums about the

6
00:00:23.279 --> 00:00:26.400
shared heritage
the shared ideals and the shared

7
00:00:26.400 --> 00:00:31.279
experiences
that we all have or perhaps could have

8
00:00:31.279 --> 00:00:35.040
today i'm honored and pleased to have my
friend david thompson

9
00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:38.800
america's well maybe the world's best
film critic

10
00:00:38.800 --> 00:00:45.200
uh with us uh he's written
the whole equation

11
00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:52.480
audio visual supports here uh uh
the uh the big screen uh these are the

12
00:00:52.480 --> 00:00:56.000
i think the two best books about
hollywood and the world

13
00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:01.039
movie uh experience and and history the
whole story of the movies

14
00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:05.119
uh as well as he's written a a a group
of recent books

15
00:01:05.119 --> 00:01:10.080
uh about terror sex murder
uh and the other reasons that we go to

16
00:01:10.080 --> 00:01:14.799
the movies
yeah there we go uh so i think we'll

17
00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:17.920
we'll talk about
hollywood's legacy and what is worth

18
00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:21.680
preserving and promoting what's really
good what's worth watching

19
00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:25.200
and especially what's worth watching
again

20
00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.799
so first the existential question for
you david

21
00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:34.640
uh the pandemic
technology the virtual thing that we're

22
00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.640
all doing streaming
etc well the film industry the movie

23
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:44.560
theater the theatrical
release the big screen survive

24
00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:48.640
i don't know i was talking only the
other day

25
00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:55.360
with a friend who is a fairly
important distributor of films in this

26
00:01:55.360 --> 00:02:00.240
country
and we agreed we don't know the answer

27
00:02:00.240 --> 00:02:05.680
uh i think a lot of people

28
00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:13.280
feel are really profound urge to get
out into a theater

29
00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:22.319
uh a live theater maybe
even more than a movie theater but

30
00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:26.720
while we've had a great time in our
living room watching

31
00:02:26.720 --> 00:02:31.280
shows that we've binged over and i think
that's been a huge

32
00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:36.239
experience um we want to get back to
what we think

33
00:02:36.239 --> 00:02:39.760
we had and

34
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:46.400
that i think is basically
sitting with a crowd of strangers

35
00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:54.400
laughing or being frightened by the same
emotion coming off the screen a big

36
00:02:54.400 --> 00:03:00.000
screen
and that is what i think we still

37
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:07.280
think of as the experience of cinema
movie going whatever you call it one has

38
00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:12.400
to say
factually that that experience has been

39
00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:20.400
in decline for quite a long time
before covet um you go to a theater or

40
00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.920
if you went to a theater just two years
ago

41
00:03:23.920 --> 00:03:31.519
in the afternoon uh
you were in pretty small company

42
00:03:31.519 --> 00:03:37.920
and a lot of those theaters did not even
play in the afternoons they had resigned

43
00:03:37.920 --> 00:03:42.560
themselves
just playing in the evening so

44
00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:47.200
we have to face the fact that
commercially many movie theaters were in

45
00:03:47.200 --> 00:03:53.040
bad shape
before covert came along and obviously

46
00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:58.480
it's been a terrible experience for them
after covert

47
00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:05.760
you talk about the experience and and
the experience of the movie theater with

48
00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:10.560
a crowd is different than anything
anything else i can i can remember uh

49
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.159
going to
opening night of jaws uh in a

50
00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:17.519
neighborhood theater in hampden
connecticut i walked a long way from

51
00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:21.120
downtown new haven to get there
and i remember the very first time the

52
00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:25.600
shark seems to appear
everyone in the theater 200 people took

53
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.720
their breath in
and since we all did it at the same time

54
00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:33.040
we all then laughed
and it was an incredible uh unifying

55
00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:36.479
experience
uh that that i that i had that that

56
00:04:36.479 --> 00:04:41.199
night
and i missed that i think everybody of a

57
00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.759
certain age
does miss it and and

58
00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:51.440
the real question is is that kind of
experience going to come back

59
00:04:51.440 --> 00:04:58.479
as a whole thing and lost
or have we moved on

60
00:04:58.479 --> 00:05:02.960
in terms of how we define the experience
of watching films

61
00:05:02.960 --> 00:05:06.320
and i'm not sure of the answer i do
think

62
00:05:06.320 --> 00:05:14.160
that watching streamed
shows has had an extraordinary effect on

63
00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:18.479
us
because you have all the advantages

64
00:05:18.479 --> 00:05:24.720
of a domestic setting
you actually have for many people

65
00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:28.960
watching at home you have a screen
quality

66
00:05:28.960 --> 00:05:35.280
a brightness of image a detail that is
more than you would get in a movie

67
00:05:35.280 --> 00:05:39.440
theater
and i think people are very impressed by

68
00:05:39.440 --> 00:05:43.520
that
emotionally and also

69
00:05:43.520 --> 00:05:49.120
the way it works economically you
feel you're just turning your television

70
00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:53.520
set on
you're renting a film for maybe

71
00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:58.160
three or four dollars and you remember
that if you took

72
00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:01.280
your friend your wife whatever your
husband

73
00:06:01.280 --> 00:06:06.000
to a movie you're probably getting into
the region of a

74
00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:10.560
forty dollar bill if you include car
parking and babysitting maybe

75
00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:20.160
um it to watch the stuff at home
seems cheaper i'm not sure that it is

76
00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:25.360
but it seems cheaper
the other thing is i think we've all

77
00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:29.120
fallen in love with binging when we get
a show we

78
00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:36.639
really love so my wife and i
right so what are you watching now yeah

79
00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.759
well i mean we're we're watching a show
called

80
00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:44.880
the investigation at the moment which is
a danish show

81
00:06:44.880 --> 00:06:52.479
but i was thinking about babylon berlin
uh when we first found that

82
00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:57.599
we just went on and on into the early
hours of the morning

83
00:06:57.599 --> 00:07:04.000
which is way beyond our bedtime um
watching maybe five episodes a night and

84
00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.039
i don't think that's unusual i think
people

85
00:07:07.039 --> 00:07:13.919
change their habit of viewing and
that old-fashioned serial right

86
00:07:13.919 --> 00:07:19.520
sensation what's going to happen next um
binge watching of long-form television

87
00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:24.560
series has catered to that
and some of them not all of them by any

88
00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:29.520
means but some of those shows are
really so good that they challenge the

89
00:07:29.520 --> 00:07:32.639
quality
of what we've been seeing in a movie

90
00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.120
theater
this is the scandinavian the

91
00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:38.720
scandinavian detective series
such as the investigation there are a

92
00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:43.680
whole bunch of them that
that seem remarkably high uh quality and

93
00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:47.759
i'm also going back to some of the bbc
series for many people

94
00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:52.400
i think they had never seen a danish or
a swedish

95
00:07:52.400 --> 00:07:57.599
show because you know there aren't that
many that play in america nowadays

96
00:07:57.599 --> 00:08:01.440
and all of a sudden you're getting hours
of it

97
00:08:01.440 --> 00:08:07.120
and um it's very intriguing and you
learn a lot about these scandinavian

98
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.520
societies so
all i'm saying is that a change has

99
00:08:11.520 --> 00:08:16.720
occurred
and while i'm certain that once we feel

100
00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.720
safe there will be a rush back to movie
theaters

101
00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:28.160
i'm not certain how long it will last
and in part that's because

102
00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:32.320
i don't know if the movie industry knows
how to make

103
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:38.959
films that will rival
the quality of the best long-form tv

104
00:08:38.959 --> 00:08:42.880
series because
you know they're more grown up than a

105
00:08:42.880 --> 00:08:46.399
lot of movies
they're dealing with character and

106
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.320
social reality
in ways that movies are scared of

107
00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:55.680
dealing with now
so i think the the industry to the

108
00:08:55.680 --> 00:09:01.360
extent that it still exists
is facing huge challenges

109
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:07.360
and questions and i
just don't know how it's going to turn

110
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:11.839
out so i'm i'm interested in
in in that because it does seem to me

111
00:09:11.839 --> 00:09:16.640
that there was a
golden age about five to ten years ago

112
00:09:16.640 --> 00:09:23.040
of uh television uh production
uh that included the wire and breaking

113
00:09:23.040 --> 00:09:27.040
bad
and uh mad men uh et cetera

114
00:09:27.040 --> 00:09:31.120
um it was really extraordinary and i've
sort of been waiting for that to happen

115
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:33.920
again there have been some interesting
things and particularly some

116
00:09:33.920 --> 00:09:40.560
interesting shorter versions of that uh
that have that have come out uh but but

117
00:09:40.560 --> 00:09:43.680
we i
i haven't seen and it's one reason i've

118
00:09:43.680 --> 00:09:47.600
been watching the scandinavian shows
uh in the british shows i haven't i

119
00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.880
haven't seen hollywood
turn out uh you know they're back to

120
00:09:50.880 --> 00:09:54.560
producing some of the
uh the weekly shows which are not

121
00:09:54.560 --> 00:09:57.440
terrible and
and we've been watching some of them too

122
00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.640
uh but nothing at the
quality of you know the five to ten

123
00:10:00.640 --> 00:10:06.399
years ago at least
my view i share your view and i think

124
00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:11.120
it's a reflection of a loss of
confidence

125
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:17.279
in hollywood i don't think hollywood
really quite believes it exists in the

126
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:23.360
old way
any longer and you know in my childhood

127
00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:30.160
i went to the movies twice a week
i didn't even know what the movie was

128
00:10:30.160 --> 00:10:36.480
i just went because i loved the
the relationship between the fantasy the

129
00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:40.959
huge screen
the packed theater it it was

130
00:10:40.959 --> 00:10:48.000
from for me and i think for many people
it was the most important communal

131
00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:53.920
experience
i had going to a soccer match would

132
00:10:53.920 --> 00:10:58.880
rival it but there is an intensity
from being in the dark that is greater

133
00:10:58.880 --> 00:11:04.079
than the open air
and i remember feeling the sheer

134
00:11:04.079 --> 00:11:12.560
excitement of watching a funny film
and everybody laughing and there was a

135
00:11:12.560 --> 00:11:17.680
kind of joy in that
you know what i mean and it applies to

136
00:11:17.680 --> 00:11:25.680
dramas and adventure films too
and i i thank my lucky stars that i

137
00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:29.920
grew up and sort of came of age in that
climate

138
00:11:29.920 --> 00:11:36.320
and when i think about
my kids and grandkids

139
00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:43.040
um i don't think the cinema
the movies means the same to them

140
00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:50.399
and i remember being
intensely moved by stories in movies

141
00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:58.480
mutual tears by them and
when i talked to my grandchildren

142
00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:06.560
they're very blase about being moved
they they they no longer believe

143
00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:13.200
that they go to the movies to believe
in an intense dramatic situation they've

144
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:18.560
got a rather detached
camp-like attitude to it because they

145
00:12:18.560 --> 00:12:25.360
they believe the movies are fake
and i'm not saying they're wrong i think

146
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.720
they
are but i think once upon a time

147
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:33.600
we you and i near enough the same sort
of age range

148
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.680
we trusted the movies we trusted those
stories

149
00:12:37.680 --> 00:12:44.320
and being immersed in them i think that
has rather passed and and it's it's a

150
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:49.120
reflection of
huge questions like why people feel

151
00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:53.600
they're alive and what they're doing
what are we good what are we aiming for

152
00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:58.160
i
i wanted to be happy when i was a kid

153
00:12:58.160 --> 00:13:03.839
and i believed that there were evident
ways that i could get to be happy

154
00:13:03.839 --> 00:13:09.360
and part of a productive society i'm
afraid

155
00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:12.959
people of my grandchildren's age don't
have that conviction

156
00:13:12.959 --> 00:13:17.279
and trust anymore now we're talking here
about

157
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.720
enormous issues and the cinema is a very
small

158
00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:27.200
part of it but i think it's been
affected deeply by the larger thing i'm

159
00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.920
talking about
well like i completely agree with you i

160
00:13:29.920 --> 00:13:33.760
think the trust in institutions is an
example of that yeah and it's

161
00:13:33.760 --> 00:13:38.160
one reason that i'm glad we we started
on this subject because i think

162
00:13:38.160 --> 00:13:41.199
there are very few trusted institutions
libraries are are

163
00:13:41.199 --> 00:13:45.199
are one trusted institution and museums
to some some extents

164
00:13:45.199 --> 00:13:50.560
as as well but but we've
lost trust in institutions and and i

165
00:13:50.560 --> 00:13:52.560
think you're right trust in hollywood
trust in

166
00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:58.480
in in the movies and and also a sense of
we have a sense of oppression i say we i

167
00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:02.480
think this is
socially uh uh broadly

168
00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:06.399
uh true though i think there are lots of
pockets where it isn't true

169
00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:11.120
that we we we feel we've gone from
feeling life was an adventure

170
00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:15.519
many of us to feeling life is an
oppression uh which is a sad commentary

171
00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.320
on our
on on our world and and the movies have

172
00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.880
followed along with that we
as recently as only only maybe a decade

173
00:14:22.880 --> 00:14:28.160
or two ago two decades ago probably
indiana jones was uh our most popular

174
00:14:28.160 --> 00:14:31.760
character
and probably all of of the fictional

175
00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:35.680
world
uh great sense of adventure i know you

176
00:14:35.680 --> 00:14:39.279
you and i might dispute a little bit
about the quality of spielberg's view of

177
00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.639
the
of the world but uh but the indiana

178
00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:45.839
jones movies were fun
and yeah and they were a sense of

179
00:14:45.839 --> 00:14:49.600
adventure and it's hard to find
anything that has a sense of adventure

180
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:54.000
anymore in uh
yeah in movies

181
00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:01.199
well i was going to say that stories the
people who write stories

182
00:15:01.199 --> 00:15:07.920
and the actors no longer feel
they can be heroes in the same sort of

183
00:15:07.920 --> 00:15:11.680
way
and you know indiana jones made some fun

184
00:15:11.680 --> 00:15:17.440
of himself
but you trusted that guy's ability

185
00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:23.600
his nerve his courage
and and there was something admirable

186
00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:28.759
about him and harrison ford
is one of those actors that i think

187
00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:32.800
universally
people said i like harrison ford he's a

188
00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:36.320
good guy
i sort of trust him whether they could

189
00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:40.079
or should have done that
is another matter but they did in the

190
00:15:40.079 --> 00:15:45.920
way that people had once trusted
john wayne there aren't actors like that

191
00:15:45.920 --> 00:15:51.360
anymore and that reflects the
what we're talking about the the loss of

192
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:57.839
faith in the whole process
of fantasy storytelling that movies

193
00:15:57.839 --> 00:16:01.199
introduced
and and and maybe in character i mean of

194
00:16:01.199 --> 00:16:04.720
course some of it is we we
we have the revelations about

195
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.680
everybody's private life
including those great actors of the past

196
00:16:07.680 --> 00:16:11.360
whether it's carrie grant or
gary cooper john wayne john wayne didn't

197
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.480
go fight in world war ii though of
course jimmy stewart did

198
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.759
um so maybe we could watch jimmy stewart
movies anyway

199
00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:22.560
i don't know you know and you wonder why
somebody like george clooney

200
00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:25.600
you you talk a little bit about clooney
and uh in in

201
00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:29.680
in your books uh in more recent books
you know he seems to have the charm and

202
00:16:29.680 --> 00:16:33.600
the grace
of a cary grant absolutely absolutely

203
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.560
and he's made one or two movies that
have that

204
00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:40.079
achieved that level it seems to me but
only one or two and then

205
00:16:40.079 --> 00:16:43.360
and then you know it's hard to even
remember some of

206
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:49.759
some of the uh of the movies
bad choices but no no i mean it's very

207
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:52.800
tough to be
george clooney or a george clooney-like

208
00:16:52.800 --> 00:16:56.959
figure today
um a year and a half ago whatever it was

209
00:16:56.959 --> 00:17:02.959
two years ago
uh when i saw once upon a time in

210
00:17:02.959 --> 00:17:06.160
hollywood a film over which i have mixed
feelings

211
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:10.319
there is a moment in that film where
brad pitt

212
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.079
goes up on a roof in a beverly hills
home

213
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:19.520
to repair the tv antenna i think
and he takes off his shirt because it's

214
00:17:19.520 --> 00:17:22.079
a beautiful day and he's going to be
working

215
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:27.839
and all of a sudden i felt
and i felt other people in the audience

216
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:32.880
of the same feeling
oh oh wow that is one guy

217
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.640
you know i think bradford at the time
was over 50

218
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:43.600
and he looked a lot younger
and he's an example i think of someone

219
00:17:43.600 --> 00:17:47.600
who has
managed to get up on screen

220
00:17:47.600 --> 00:17:54.000
and say i'm gonna be your hero
without irony without shame about it

221
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:01.280
without feeling camp and pulled it off
but it's a hard thing to do it's equally

222
00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:05.760
hard
for a young woman or a woman to come on

223
00:18:05.760 --> 00:18:09.280
screen
and to look at us without knowing where

224
00:18:09.280 --> 00:18:12.400
they're
the way you look at the audience in a

225
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:16.720
film
and say you know i have one sexy broad

226
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:23.120
because one sexy broad has become an
extremely problematic category

227
00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:27.120
and it's very hard for actresses to do
that

228
00:18:27.120 --> 00:18:33.600
straight because they don't want
to encourage the archetype of one

229
00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:41.360
sexy broad because it represents
a past now there we're touching upon

230
00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:48.080
a cultural hangover that
really is dogging the movies they no

231
00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:53.280
longer
know i think how to treat relationships

232
00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:57.760
between
men and women and the assurance that it

233
00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:02.880
had for decades about that
he's good-looking she's good-looking of

234
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:09.600
course they're going to come together
it's not believed in anymore it's not

235
00:19:09.600 --> 00:19:13.039
just
that divorce broke down the sense of

236
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:16.480
what
that man and woman will do together it's

237
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:22.480
that
romantic confidence has gone

238
00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.960
and it it's a it's a it's another way of
saying

239
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:34.320
that it's fatuous to say
make america great again because

240
00:19:34.320 --> 00:19:38.559
america is a wonderful place i chose to
come here

241
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:45.600
but a nation does not need
to be great it needs to be decent

242
00:19:45.600 --> 00:19:52.080
and it needs to survive and the movies
i think bread in us

243
00:19:52.080 --> 00:19:58.160
a feeling of supremacy of
prowess and accomplishment and

244
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:04.640
attached to that was the feeling that
men around the world and if

245
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.799
men ran the world then they must take
responsibility for making a

246
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:15.200
god-awful mess of it and we no longer
buy into those archetypes and we're not

247
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.240
sure what we're going to work our way
through to

248
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.600
and there's a lot of anxiety about it i
think

249
00:20:21.600 --> 00:20:26.960
and the funny thing is that although
hollywood thrived in the era of

250
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:32.440
depression
and war it didn't have

251
00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:36.880
anxiety anxiety
you went to the movies in the first

252
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:41.440
years of the second world war
and you know the world was in enormous

253
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:45.360
peril
and somehow what you were seeing made

254
00:20:45.360 --> 00:20:48.799
you feel good about it
you know i mean some of the great

255
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:54.960
preston searches films like the lady eve
howard hawks is his girlfriend were made

256
00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:00.720
during the war they ignored the war
but by doing that they sort of said to

257
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.760
us
you can ignore the war it's going to be

258
00:21:03.760 --> 00:21:10.000
all right we're going to come through
i don't think we are sure we're going to

259
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:15.039
come through now
so and and you've just picked two of our

260
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.240
mutual favorite
movies that the the lady eve and his

261
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.559
girl friday
and and i i i wonder why

262
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.760
those movies ha among other things they
they have

263
00:21:25.760 --> 00:21:29.039
very strong women uh in the movies i
mean

264
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.960
barbara stanwick as the lady eve
sedgwick etc

265
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.400
uh and uh and catherine hepburn uh i'm
sorry

266
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.520
uh and his girl friday rosalind russell
and then there are some other

267
00:21:39.520 --> 00:21:42.880
similar movies at the similar time the
philadelphia story with catherine

268
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.200
catherine hepburn um the the those
comedies of remarriage which you've

269
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:50.320
you've uh you've written written about
uh in

270
00:21:50.320 --> 00:21:53.840
in which men and women are very anxious
about each other

271
00:21:53.840 --> 00:21:56.880
you know jimmy stewart in in the
philadelphia story

272
00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.880
is very anxious um the the whole
relationship of the triangular

273
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.480
relationship
uh in his girl friday uh between cary

274
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:07.120
grant
the editor the he'll leave the reporter

275
00:22:07.120 --> 00:22:09.840
and ralph bellamy who comes on is that
the poor

276
00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:15.360
poor end of that triangle uh triangle um
there's an immense amount of anxiety

277
00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:17.760
hildy of course has a lot of anxiety
because

278
00:22:17.760 --> 00:22:21.120
she knows exactly what walter her
ex-husband is up to

279
00:22:21.120 --> 00:22:26.960
uh and uh uh
and why can't we why can't we deal with

280
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.520
our anxiety that way and knowing knowing
that

281
00:22:29.520 --> 00:22:33.440
the world is a slippery place knowing
that there's anxiety out there

282
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.720
and just being strong enough to take it
and and

283
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.840
to give it back to take it and give it
back which is what those movies are

284
00:22:39.840 --> 00:22:44.400
about
well i i think some of it has to do with

285
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:52.000
the way
in which men and women to take just two

286
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.200
branches of the sexual tree men and
women

287
00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:02.960
now feel a lot of collective
unease and regret and envy

288
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:09.520
and hostility about how they might be
together we're not

289
00:23:09.520 --> 00:23:12.880
confident of what's going to happen to
us

290
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:19.440
in a quote relationship uh
we feel that relationships are much less

291
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.280
stable
than they seemed to be in the hollywood

292
00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:28.880
that loved happy endings
and we're working it out and you know

293
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:33.360
uh there are an increasing number of
ways

294
00:23:33.360 --> 00:23:40.159
of working it out and
they have they have liberated our

295
00:23:40.159 --> 00:23:44.640
society
in a lot of ways i mean for instance i

296
00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:48.159
think
same-sex marriage is a very liberating

297
00:23:48.159 --> 00:23:52.640
force and
i think it's quote a good thing but

298
00:23:52.640 --> 00:24:00.559
i know that it is one of the things
that most animates and provokes

299
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:05.279
the kind of people who broke into the
capital

300
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:09.279
on january the 6th just to generalize
that group of people

301
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:16.480
and these tensions in our society
they have to do not just with how much

302
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:18.640
money you have and whether you have a
gun

303
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:23.679
or not they have to do with what your
attitude

304
00:24:23.679 --> 00:24:29.440
dissects to living together
to happiness what those ideas are and

305
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:35.919
we're much more confused now
in the long term of history it may

306
00:24:35.919 --> 00:24:41.919
well be that in a hundred years or so a
great historian begins a book by saying

307
00:24:41.919 --> 00:24:48.240
at last in the second
decade of the new century

308
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.880
the 21st century america at last
discovered

309
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:58.159
the need to feel uneasy
and had to have less confidence in

310
00:24:58.159 --> 00:25:02.320
itself
and from that moment onwards the quality

311
00:25:02.320 --> 00:25:07.600
of the country
began to improve and the cult of

312
00:25:07.600 --> 00:25:11.760
greatness
gave way to the generality

313
00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:16.960
of decency i would hope that a book like
that will appear and that it will

314
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:21.840
reflect
a real enlightenment we're at that point

315
00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:27.120
we have to go one way or the other i
think we have to become more liberal

316
00:25:27.120 --> 00:25:30.720
or much less liberal and it's quite
evident

317
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:36.960
in the in our society how easily
we could go either direction we should

318
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:39.120
certainly become more liberal in the
sense of

319
00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:43.520
of uh civil society of having a civil
society

320
00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:46.880
civility being a core to to a civil
society and we've

321
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:51.200
kind of run out of that and i think that
that you know the the worst example is

322
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.799
certainly the insurrection
at the capitol but their their their

323
00:25:54.799 --> 00:26:01.360
example their examples all over
including on on the other other side um

324
00:26:01.360 --> 00:26:04.559
i i do i do hope you you would agree
that

325
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.600
the the possibility of greatness the
possibility

326
00:26:07.600 --> 00:26:13.200
of uh of of heroism
it seems to me take for instance the

327
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:18.480
civil rights uh movement
uh that that it took heroism

328
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:23.440
uh to it maybe it may take heroism for
us to get back to making good movies i

329
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.200
don't know but
uh it took some heroism to get to where

330
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.720
we are
today and it may take some heroism of

331
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.760
one kind or
or another for for us to to bring people

332
00:26:33.760 --> 00:26:38.400
together around
certain common ideals um being civil is

333
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.240
a start though i i
agree in that sense liberalism the

334
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:47.120
traditional liberalism
is absolutely uh necessary and wanting

335
00:26:47.120 --> 00:26:54.159
today i mean i think
to be heroic is a wonderful

336
00:26:54.159 --> 00:27:01.120
aspiration because it
it implies that you oppose yourself

337
00:27:01.120 --> 00:27:08.080
to some force that
disagrees with you and you are prepared

338
00:27:08.080 --> 00:27:16.320
to out argue it to demonstrate
other ways and i think that's admirable

339
00:27:16.320 --> 00:27:19.840
i have to say and i think this is where
i'm still

340
00:27:19.840 --> 00:27:25.279
european and english
i don't really know what national

341
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:29.440
greatness
is and i

342
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:35.120
certainly don't trust it when it is a
self-conscious

343
00:27:35.120 --> 00:27:38.559
ambition in a society i mean we may look
back

344
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:45.039
on the time of the romans
and say that was a great civilization

345
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.480
it's based on
it was founded partly on slavery and

346
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.520
many things we don't approve of
but they did great things in the world

347
00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:59.440
but i'd much rather we
told them through history that they had

348
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:04.000
done great things
than that they said at the time

349
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:07.600
we're doing great things because the
only examples i know of

350
00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:14.320
people saying that in the present moment
are essentially fascist operations

351
00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:19.919
that's very frightening i think when
i think about my my sense is that's a

352
00:28:19.919 --> 00:28:23.760
that's an overstatement unless you take
some very small groups the you know the

353
00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:28.640
the the oath breakers or the
the the boogie boys um

354
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:32.080
it does seem to me that that there is a
heroism that we

355
00:28:32.080 --> 00:28:35.840
that we do need that's reflected in in
some figures in our history

356
00:28:35.840 --> 00:28:39.679
and uh and and and some movies about
them so

357
00:28:39.679 --> 00:28:43.760
take take lincoln for instance and take
not only spielberg's

358
00:28:43.760 --> 00:28:46.960
lincoln with daniel day lewis but but uh
ford's

359
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:50.640
uh young mr lincoln yeah um which are
both

360
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:54.720
i think very good very good movies not
ford's absolute best

361
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:59.200
uh and maybe close to spielberg's best
with with lincoln

362
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:05.760
um and and and and they're about
they're about people who protected uh

363
00:29:05.760 --> 00:29:09.760
what is good let's let's forget
greatness for a moment because of

364
00:29:09.760 --> 00:29:14.080
its connotations nationalism versus
patriotism for instance

365
00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:18.080
but protected what was good uh in in
this country and what was good in this

366
00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:23.520
country at the beginning of the country
and in the civil war where you know 300

367
00:29:23.520 --> 00:29:25.679
000
white people were willing to die to end

368
00:29:25.679 --> 00:29:29.840
slavery uh
and you know it's more complicated than

369
00:29:29.840 --> 00:29:34.480
that i recognize
but defending that which lincoln did

370
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.520
um and and expressing our our care for
that

371
00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:43.679
as spielberg and daniel day lewis did
seems to me something that is worth uh

372
00:29:43.679 --> 00:29:46.880
uh celebrating about
the movie business and about about who

373
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:50.880
we are well i
know i agree with you and i mean i i

374
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:56.159
like both those films very much
however um

375
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:06.320
isn't there a way that we need to say
draw a breath we fought the civil war

376
00:30:06.320 --> 00:30:13.039
and if you like right and justice
won the civil war

377
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:20.240
we marched across the bridge
with john lewis we we we suffered

378
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:25.600
through civil rights with people
being assassinated and we got civil

379
00:30:25.600 --> 00:30:34.000
rights which is an extraordinary
benevolent wise piece of legislation

380
00:30:34.080 --> 00:30:40.640
but we are still a
deeply racist society

381
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:49.120
in other words there is still i think
in most white people a discomfort

382
00:30:49.120 --> 00:30:56.159
with people of color and that has got
to be dealt with and i don't think

383
00:30:56.159 --> 00:31:01.039
it's the responsibility of the movies to
deal with it

384
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:05.120
i think we have been dealing with it for
a long time and movies have been dealing

385
00:31:05.120 --> 00:31:08.480
with it
too i mean you know a lot of us

386
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:11.279
individually
and hollywood and you know sort of sad

387
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.039
sappy liberalism ways
like you know guesses coming to dinner

388
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:19.200
um uh
but you know much more heroically if you

389
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.080
will
you look at look at the oscars this year

390
00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:25.120
um
we you know i think i think we we are

391
00:31:25.120 --> 00:31:28.240
coming to terms with it and i think
i think attitudes have changed

392
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:31.679
dramatically and
you know it is true throughout history

393
00:31:31.679 --> 00:31:36.640
that people have always been
afraid of uh and oppressive of things

394
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.840
that are different
than and people are different than they

395
00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:43.039
are and
we're doing i think we're doing okay

396
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:45.679
david
compares to the chinese where they've

397
00:31:45.679 --> 00:31:49.360
got 10 million uyghurs
in what are functionally kind you know

398
00:31:49.360 --> 00:31:52.559
they've recreated the gulag or the
concentration camps

399
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.679
uh in in china and you know vladimir
putin who

400
00:31:55.679 --> 00:31:59.679
you know if you raise your voice uh
against him at dinner you've

401
00:31:59.679 --> 00:32:03.360
you know you find yourself dead the next
day um etc

402
00:32:03.360 --> 00:32:07.679
etc we could go around the world i think
stewart we're actually doing

403
00:32:07.679 --> 00:32:10.960
okay in that regard we're not perfect
that's for sure

404
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:15.279
that's for sure and we need to do more
for sure but

405
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:18.480
just saying we're racist strikes me as
as as uh being

406
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:25.600
a little heavy well perhaps it is
we're less racist than we were yes i

407
00:32:25.600 --> 00:32:29.440
think so
but i think it is still there and

408
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:34.000
i had a conversation a few weeks ago
with spike lee

409
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.919
who is an absolutely engaging and
wonderfully

410
00:32:37.919 --> 00:32:44.080
smart guy and um
you know a great career

411
00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:49.519
i think it's not unfair to say that
spike lee believes

412
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:57.760
the world now is as racist as the one
into which he was born in the 1950s

413
00:32:57.760 --> 00:33:02.159
i don't think it's enough anymore for
people like you and me

414
00:33:02.159 --> 00:33:09.440
to say we're working hard at it
and we're doing okay because if you look

415
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.240
at what has happened in the last few
years

416
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:19.360
just the last few years in this country
in matters of race it doesn't look okay

417
00:33:19.360 --> 00:33:24.000
to me
it really doesn't and i think

418
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:31.519
that it's easily conceivable
that within the next few years the

419
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:34.880
extreme right wing
would come back into power with a

420
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:39.919
vengeance
and this country might then be

421
00:33:39.919 --> 00:33:44.320
almost compelled to re-fight the civil
war

422
00:33:44.320 --> 00:33:49.039
maybe you think that's well i guess with
you too

423
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:54.399
possibly more on on that subject and
so again i mean i would i would take if

424
00:33:54.399 --> 00:33:57.919
you look look uh
at the oscars look at the racial

425
00:33:57.919 --> 00:34:00.159
protests so we had the racial protests
and

426
00:34:00.159 --> 00:34:04.480
what was the nation's reaction to the
racial protests put aside the

427
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.760
the violence that occasionally
accompanied them

428
00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:11.119
the racial protests i i think were an
inflection point

429
00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:14.879
i think i think the majority of people
in the in the country thought

430
00:34:14.879 --> 00:34:18.480
that understood what was going on in the
racial protests

431
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.919
you know you can argue about black lives
matter this way or that but that the

432
00:34:21.919 --> 00:34:26.639
racial protests themselves against the
the police killings and other aspects of

433
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:31.839
racism in the country would seem to me
to to be a a a very important moment in

434
00:34:31.839 --> 00:34:34.159
our history and then if you look around
at what's going

435
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:37.599
on in in terms of the movements towards
racial

436
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:41.280
racial justice i think they're they're
pretty strong in the country

437
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.560
now you've got the insurrectionists and
you you know you've got

438
00:34:44.560 --> 00:34:48.000
donald trump occasionally retweeting
white supremacist stuff

439
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.200
and and whatnot and that but i think
that's an outlying

440
00:34:51.200 --> 00:34:54.720
thing uh i don't think that's a there's
a wave of

441
00:34:54.720 --> 00:34:58.800
of that going on except you know
[Music]

442
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:04.079
the the trump tweeters um which
which is you know which is a problem

443
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:09.280
absolutely is a problem needs to
we we all need to reject that but but i

444
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:15.440
i i see i see a wave going the other way
look i'm a racial point of view i hope

445
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:18.560
you're right
and i'm encouraged by a lot of things

446
00:35:18.560 --> 00:35:24.480
that are happening too
but why is it

447
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:32.800
that people of color are finding it much
harder to get a vaccine

448
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:39.520
and why is it that they are dying
in unusually high proportions from

449
00:35:39.520 --> 00:35:44.160
covid how has that happened if we've
been working at this

450
00:35:44.160 --> 00:35:50.640
and doing well and it's pretty well okay
you see i love the country and please

451
00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:54.560
don't
misinterpret what i'm saying i love the

452
00:35:54.560 --> 00:35:58.640
country
but i think the country is on the cusp

453
00:35:58.640 --> 00:36:07.520
and i think the battle simply to be
decent seems to me to be more important

454
00:36:07.520 --> 00:36:12.160
the aim of being great i come from a
country

455
00:36:12.160 --> 00:36:16.480
pretty good country fairly good record
in a lot of respects

456
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:20.960
it's a stupid country in other respects
but

457
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:25.599
even when the second world war was
concluded

458
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:29.680
and it would be possible for britain to
say well we won

459
00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:36.560
as opposed to losing uh
i don't think anyone i knew felt it was

460
00:36:36.560 --> 00:36:41.280
necessary
for the country to be great

461
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:49.280
i don't know what great means ultimately
in that sense i think being alive

462
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:54.480
is more than great you
do you know what i'm meaning yeah well i

463
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.119
i absolutely know what what you mean and
i i'll say

464
00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:01.440
two things one i i completely agree with
you that i think being live is great and

465
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.599
i think
one of the great things about the movies

466
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:08.240
historically has been
uh we go through

467
00:37:08.240 --> 00:37:11.920
various individual movies if you wanted
to it is

468
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:15.359
it frequently is about the joy of living
yes

469
00:37:15.359 --> 00:37:20.480
about the joy of of of participating in
in certain things and i was going to go

470
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:25.520
into a riff about the difference between
1939 between victor fleming doing gone

471
00:37:25.520 --> 00:37:28.560
with the wind and
victor fleming doing the wizard of oz

472
00:37:28.560 --> 00:37:33.440
and why the wizard of oz will be a joy
for everyone forever and gone with the

473
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:37.839
wind now has to be interpreted
uh to be on tv for good reason the

474
00:37:37.839 --> 00:37:41.920
reasons we've just
been talking about um yeah but but but

475
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:44.640
but i want to
there's a word you used and you use it

476
00:37:44.640 --> 00:37:48.160
in your books and it's
profoundly important word and i think

477
00:37:48.160 --> 00:37:52.720
it's the word allegiance
and to have allegiance to anything we

478
00:37:52.720 --> 00:37:56.720
have to believe in it
in some way now you know you and i

479
00:37:56.720 --> 00:38:01.680
probably don't disagree much about
the problems of nationalism national you

480
00:38:01.680 --> 00:38:05.119
know
those of us who are old enough who or

481
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:08.960
who saw enough world war ii movies or
world war one movies or

482
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:12.880
have read enough history know that
nationalism can be a huge problem and

483
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:16.800
nationalism has
existed for a very long time and and

484
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.359
it's pretty much existed in one form or
another

485
00:38:19.359 --> 00:38:22.880
uh ethnocentrism however however you
want to put it

486
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:26.800
almost everywhere in in in history it
has existed

487
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:30.640
and much worse forms than anything we
see in the united states today

488
00:38:30.640 --> 00:38:34.400
but it's but it's problematic for sure
but we have to find

489
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:38.000
some kind of allegiance and it's why
patriotism is important

490
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:44.240
and it's why having good figures
figures figures that that we care about

491
00:38:44.240 --> 00:38:48.960
you know the great man theory of history
may may absolutely be wrong and and

492
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:52.320
fallacious and particularly if taken
over by nationalists as in german

493
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:57.119
history it was for instance
but if if if we can have people like

494
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:00.960
george washington or abraham lincoln of
martin luther king

495
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:04.960
who represent our country and the
greatness of our country

496
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:09.359
allegiance to that allegiance to what
they represent seems to me

497
00:39:09.359 --> 00:39:12.880
something that's unifying in a good way
for the country

498
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:16.079
uh and and can take us a long way and if
we look at

499
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:20.079
if we look at if we look at patriot if
we confuse nationalism and patriotism

500
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:23.200
and on the right we've done that in a
bad way my

501
00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:26.400
my people have done that in a bad way in
the last 20 years

502
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:30.640
but if on the left we can we confuse
patriotism with nationalism and we

503
00:39:30.640 --> 00:39:33.200
reject any form of allegiance to the
country

504
00:39:33.200 --> 00:39:36.960
particularly our country which has done
so much good in the history of the world

505
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:40.240
i think we've got a problem there

506
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:46.800
i agree with everything you've said
and i i think that those

507
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:54.079
ideals are so
important i would say

508
00:39:55.200 --> 00:40:02.880
the two main things that
people have allegiance to today

509
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:11.040
are one technology
and two survival

510
00:40:11.040 --> 00:40:17.440
and i think that a lot of people
believe in their heart of hearts that

511
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:22.960
the problems we face
and they go all the way from say racism

512
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:28.240
and poverty
to what is going to happen

513
00:40:28.240 --> 00:40:34.480
through our climate i think a lot of
people actually believe

514
00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:41.040
it's hopeless and i think they have
settled

515
00:40:41.040 --> 00:40:45.839
on making their time their remaining
time

516
00:40:45.839 --> 00:40:49.599
as good as it can be as comfortable as
it can be

517
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:54.240
and i find it fascinating how that urge
to be

518
00:40:54.240 --> 00:41:00.000
comfortable is enormously accelerated
and assisted

519
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.640
by technology and i think there are many
many things

520
00:41:04.640 --> 00:41:11.440
in our lives where we have actually
voluntarily abandoned

521
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:17.359
qualities of human contact because the
technology seems like the more rational

522
00:41:17.359 --> 00:41:23.680
and economic way of conducting our life
in other words to really put it in a

523
00:41:23.680 --> 00:41:30.000
nutshell a huge nutshell
there is a battle underway already

524
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:37.040
between moral intelligence
by which i mean the ability to hold

525
00:41:37.040 --> 00:41:42.960
complicated ideas in your head
in an effort to make the lives of as

526
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:48.480
many people as possible
better and artificial intelligence

527
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:53.520
which is the logic and the rationale of
technology

528
00:41:53.520 --> 00:42:00.800
and which could
could smother moral intelligence

529
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:04.800
and you know we're talking huge lofty
stuff here and

530
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:08.000
somehow we got away from the movies
right yeah we got we've gotten away from

531
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.400
the movies
let me let me ask you this question to

532
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:12.480
get back to the movies but to take your
point

533
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:17.040
you you've just made um i i do think
technology separates it's one reason i

534
00:42:17.040 --> 00:42:20.160
think the community
programs that libraries and museums do

535
00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:22.319
are so important they bring people
together

536
00:42:22.319 --> 00:42:25.599
and in the pandemic we haven't been able
to do that but

537
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:28.720
there's a movie that you and i both love
and and

538
00:42:28.720 --> 00:42:33.839
in which a decision is made uh
that basically is it's a decision about

539
00:42:33.839 --> 00:42:36.400
comfort in one way but it's a decision
about

540
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.640
what i would call communal values that
that i think we're talking about

541
00:42:40.640 --> 00:42:44.400
meet me in st louis i'm thinking of the
musical and

542
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:47.839
and and you're very eloquent on this in
a couple of a couple of your your books

543
00:42:47.839 --> 00:42:55.200
um about the decision that father makes
uh to uh to not take the leap in his

544
00:42:55.200 --> 00:43:00.560
career and go to new york
corporate headquarters um and to stay

545
00:43:00.560 --> 00:43:04.560
with the great family now of course you
know any family in america would love to

546
00:43:04.560 --> 00:43:08.000
live in the house
uh they live in uh louis it's not

547
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:11.119
exactly it's not exactly abandoning
comfort that's for sure

548
00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:15.599
it's a sweet life they have there yeah
right yeah exactly but but it's a it's a

549
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:18.560
very sentimental movie
and of the kind that it's very hard to

550
00:43:18.560 --> 00:43:22.960
make today and it's basically about
family values which everybody claims to

551
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:27.040
be in favor of and nobody really
uh supports these days left right or

552
00:43:27.040 --> 00:43:31.200
center
um and i i i do think that the the

553
00:43:31.200 --> 00:43:34.880
notion of community is so is so deeply
important

554
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:38.960
and for a long time people on the right
were all about being togethers

555
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:43.440
and berkians and and uh and celebrating
the the community

556
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:47.920
uh and and and social justice warriors
on on the left have claimed to be all

557
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.200
about that
and where i see community happening is

558
00:43:51.200 --> 00:43:55.440
in places like public libraries and
and at the local level where people come

559
00:43:55.440 --> 00:44:00.960
together to do things and to have fun
uh have fun or do some good and and and

560
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.839
it's it's one reason i
i wanted to do this program with you is

561
00:44:03.839 --> 00:44:07.760
i thought you know
if if we could recreate in libraries and

562
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:11.839
sometimes in museums i know
museums that are doing doing this the

563
00:44:11.839 --> 00:44:15.920
old film society idea
you know when you and i were were young

564
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:20.160
and going to five movies a day
there were lots of places to see older

565
00:44:20.160 --> 00:44:22.720
movies and classic movies and the kind
of movies that

566
00:44:22.720 --> 00:44:26.319
like meet me in st louis that are about
values that are different than some of

567
00:44:26.319 --> 00:44:29.119
the values that are being celebrated
movies today

568
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:33.599
um and i wonder if we couldn't we
couldn't inspire ourselves uh

569
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:37.520
in libraries and museums with some some
great movies of

570
00:44:37.520 --> 00:44:40.640
some older movies and some new movies
and interpreting some some

571
00:44:40.640 --> 00:44:49.040
challenging movies i mean i think that
libraries museums

572
00:44:49.040 --> 00:44:55.920
schools are
one of the greatest most encouraging

573
00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:04.079
welcoming aspects of this country and
many other developed countries and

574
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:11.040
i i as a kid owed a lot
to libraries and and still do and

575
00:45:11.040 --> 00:45:19.839
i love them but here's a point
in the in the realm of movies

576
00:45:19.839 --> 00:45:26.240
we are at a point now very
close to it where anyone

577
00:45:26.240 --> 00:45:33.359
who's got uh
access to the platforms that are

578
00:45:33.359 --> 00:45:36.880
available and i'm not minimizing what
that costs but

579
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:43.599
still most of the country has that
access and that gives them the ability

580
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:47.599
virtually
and i mean virtually in the old sense to

581
00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:51.920
dial up
any movie they want to see

582
00:45:52.319 --> 00:45:55.359
um most of the films you and i have been
talking about

583
00:45:55.359 --> 00:45:58.400
or could be talking about it in the
program at the moment

584
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:01.839
we could we could go home and dial them
up

585
00:46:01.839 --> 00:46:08.880
and that technology
is extraordinary and wonderful and you

586
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:12.480
and i remember an age where if you
hadn't seen a film

587
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:17.760
you might have to wait years to find it
in a movie theater because there was no

588
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:22.560
access
to films in this kind of form

589
00:46:22.560 --> 00:46:30.000
um in a way
that technology has already surpassed

590
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:36.720
the library that has shelves of
shelves of dvds it's wonderful that they

591
00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:40.079
do
because you could go to the library and

592
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:45.040
you can find
a precious rare film as a dvd

593
00:46:45.040 --> 00:46:52.720
however when you get home
can you play it because the dvd

594
00:46:52.720 --> 00:46:57.040
player and the ability to service and
repair

595
00:46:57.040 --> 00:47:03.200
a dvd player that is fading away
and more and more we depend on people

596
00:47:03.200 --> 00:47:08.839
like netflix and amazon
to have the films we want to see

597
00:47:08.839 --> 00:47:15.119
and they're corporations
they run by business logic and what that

598
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:19.040
means is
you can't be sure that they will always

599
00:47:19.040 --> 00:47:23.599
have the films
you want so that

600
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:27.920
if i want to see the shop around the
corner

601
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:32.559
a classic for the moment i can see it
now but it's

602
00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:38.400
possible that in 10 years time
netflix will tell you or a version of

603
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:42.880
netflix will tell you
oh we discontinued the shop around the

604
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:46.079
corner
because there wasn't sufficient demand

605
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:50.240
for it
because most young people haven't heard

606
00:47:50.240 --> 00:47:53.839
of it
don't know who else lubitch was and find

607
00:47:53.839 --> 00:47:57.920
it rather
strange to see two people

608
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:01.359
spending an hour and a half talking
across purposes

609
00:48:01.359 --> 00:48:07.839
as to whether they're in love or not
because that's not the way people today

610
00:48:07.839 --> 00:48:12.400
really talk and behave now the
technology is

611
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:16.480
changing the way we think about
ourselves

612
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:23.920
and i think that's
generally alarming i suspect you do too

613
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:28.000
yeah i do that's why i'm suggesting all
alternatives

614
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:32.000
yes no absolutely and and you know i i
want you to be

615
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:37.760
back in libraries and i want to be and
i want to millions of people to be in

616
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:41.359
those libraries using them and of course
there are more

617
00:48:41.359 --> 00:48:46.800
imaginative ways of using them than any
of us have yet thought of and you are

618
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:52.880
a forerunner and a very important figure
in pioneering the whole sense of

619
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:57.280
how can we make libraries relevant and
active and important

620
00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:01.119
and i've seen your library in kansas
city i know

621
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:04.960
the kind of things you did and i now
know that you're

622
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:08.720
sort of taking responsibility for the
libraries of america

623
00:49:08.720 --> 00:49:12.640
and that's a great thing no one we
couldn't hire a better person for that

624
00:49:12.640 --> 00:49:18.800
job than you
but the technology is

625
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:24.480
insatiable and people
love technology and they simply do not

626
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:30.319
know
how to stop it for instance go back 200

627
00:49:30.319 --> 00:49:34.559
years or more
the photograph comes into being and the

628
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:38.160
photograph is so beguiling and so
seductive

629
00:49:38.160 --> 00:49:42.800
and so entertaining that everybody wants
it

630
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:46.079
and if anyone stands up and says you
know

631
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:49.920
be very careful the photograph
introduces

632
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:56.319
a concept new to us the lifelike
and once you have the life like you run

633
00:49:56.319 --> 00:50:01.520
the risk
of life meaning less

634
00:50:01.520 --> 00:50:05.760
and they look at you and they say you
mean you want to abandon photography

635
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:09.200
which is absurd but that's only a
reflection

636
00:50:09.200 --> 00:50:13.599
of how far technology never gets put to
the vote

637
00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:20.800
we never vote on technology uh it just
happens it occurs we work with our feet

638
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:24.800
we adopt it we adopt it we find it we
find it useful

639
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:31.359
uh or entertaining um
you know so light i think is you know i

640
00:50:31.359 --> 00:50:36.400
i want i want to end we wouldn't go to
questions in one minute but

641
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:40.880
i'm glad you brought up light because i
think it's one of the great subjects in

642
00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:44.559
your books across all of
your books is the subject of light the

643
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:49.280
california light the
light and monument valley the light that

644
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:55.520
wells and and greg tolin get uh in
citizen kane uh and uh and and the

645
00:50:55.520 --> 00:50:59.440
magnificent ambersons
and i i told you we were preparing for

646
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.920
this i watched
more or less simultaneously the

647
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:04.800
magnificent ambersons and the earrings
of madame de

648
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:11.280
uh uh max offil's movie
and there is things glow

649
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:14.800
in these movies they glow in these
movies and there's they're always in

650
00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:17.520
both
both of their movies the movies and max

651
00:51:17.520 --> 00:51:22.000
ovals and movies of
of orson welles there's always a

652
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:26.559
source of light somewhere in the scene
that's not directly

653
00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:32.079
on or from the actors or or the
the sun shining or the ambient light

654
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:35.839
shining on
on the actors and your eye is always

655
00:51:35.839 --> 00:51:38.880
drawn to it and drawn to other things
that are glowing on the

656
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:41.920
on on the screen it's a really remark
and and

657
00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:45.760
you have a comparison at one point you
you use los meninas

658
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.319
the velasquez painting and i was looking
at las meninas

659
00:51:50.319 --> 00:51:53.680
and and looking at the backgrounds
looking at that at

660
00:51:53.680 --> 00:51:58.319
scenes uh in in magnificent emerson's
and the earrings of madame did

661
00:51:58.319 --> 00:52:02.000
and i was thinking you know this is
really what the painting is about

662
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:05.359
and what both of these filmmakers are
are telling us

663
00:52:05.359 --> 00:52:09.359
is there's always light somewhere that
we're we're drawn to

664
00:52:09.359 --> 00:52:13.440
and it's always it's always somewhere
behind us or around us

665
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:17.599
uh or we're using it from some source we
don't fully understand vermeer

666
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:21.760
i i also see this in vermeer um and and
and

667
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:26.079
the trick of the light if you will uh
and you're very good on on

668
00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:29.920
on on this subject and it's it's
something the movies can do for us

669
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:34.000
and that great art can do for us great
great painters like velasquez or vermeer

670
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.119
can do for us
that we find very hard to do for

671
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:42.319
ourselves which is to see
the big picture to see a big screen

672
00:52:42.319 --> 00:52:45.680
in which there are many sources of light
and

673
00:52:45.680 --> 00:52:49.200
and and energy they're also incredible
motion in both those

674
00:52:49.200 --> 00:52:53.440
those films um so before we go to
questions

675
00:52:53.440 --> 00:53:01.359
i want to comment on that well
i'm looking at you in a room in your

676
00:53:01.359 --> 00:53:05.680
house
no no no i'm being i'm being serious

677
00:53:05.680 --> 00:53:12.559
there is a beautiful white light
behind you i i'm not suggesting

678
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:16.240
that you calculated this and contrived
it

679
00:53:16.240 --> 00:53:21.359
but oh maybe you did but when i look at
the image

680
00:53:21.359 --> 00:53:23.839
of you

681
00:53:24.640 --> 00:53:28.079
your shelf of books going off in a
diagonal

682
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:32.559
a door in the background i'm not quite
sure of the shape of the room behind you

683
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:36.400
but
there is a bright light just over your

684
00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:41.359
left shoulder
you may not know it's there but it is

685
00:53:41.359 --> 00:53:45.119
and it
makes it gives me a

686
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:51.240
sense of how you live
that i find really touching i'm not

687
00:53:51.240 --> 00:53:56.079
sentimentalizing you
i find touching and precious and i think

688
00:53:56.079 --> 00:54:00.079
that it's something
as you say the movies can do it can put

689
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:04.640
people in a place
and it can light them natural light or

690
00:54:04.640 --> 00:54:09.760
artificial light
in a way that says oh i think that's a

691
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:15.680
nice guy
and okay okay

692
00:54:15.680 --> 00:54:19.200
i want to get a question from our
audience before you you go into a

693
00:54:19.200 --> 00:54:23.040
rapture
on on on this and your interior design

694
00:54:23.040 --> 00:54:26.319
yeah we're
friends we're just good friends um uh

695
00:54:26.319 --> 00:54:30.000
elizabeth have we got a a question or
two from the audience

696
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.400
we have a wide variety of really great
and thoughtful questions so i'm hoping

697
00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:37.359
people can
stick on the line a little bit longer so

698
00:54:37.359 --> 00:54:42.640
we can get to a few of these
there's a question from val she's

699
00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:45.520
writing from
the talbot museum of art in roanoke

700
00:54:45.520 --> 00:54:47.920
virginia
and she says that they'll soon be

701
00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:52.240
presenting the ruth e carter
afrofuturism and costume design

702
00:54:52.240 --> 00:54:55.040
exhibition
which features this academy

703
00:54:55.040 --> 00:54:59.280
award-winning costume designers
creations for movies like black panther

704
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:06.400
selma roots amistad among others
so she's asking if uh crosby or david

705
00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:10.799
have any insights
as to how costuming black actors has

706
00:55:10.799 --> 00:55:16.960
changed over the years
oh boy well that is a fascinating

707
00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:21.760
question
um well i mean

708
00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:26.799
you have to allow that for a long time

709
00:55:27.040 --> 00:55:33.599
uh you did not find
black people in american films who were

710
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:37.440
other
than very poor now

711
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:42.480
i'm not saying that that wasn't fairly
true to life

712
00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:50.079
but i think the constant presentation
of black women as housemaids and

713
00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:54.079
similar kind of servants i think it
reinforced the idea that that's what

714
00:55:54.079 --> 00:56:01.359
black women should be
and uh therefore they were generally not

715
00:56:01.359 --> 00:56:06.400
always but generally
poorly dressed and you know the

716
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:12.000
world famous scene of mammy
in going with the wind lacing up

717
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:15.359
scarlett's corset
and scarlet is from a completely

718
00:56:15.359 --> 00:56:21.280
different price level
and and uh the maid maybe

719
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:28.240
is helping her and that seems to be the
natural and persistent

720
00:56:28.240 --> 00:56:31.520
way in which a black woman and a white
woman

721
00:56:31.520 --> 00:56:37.119
should interact um
i'm sure that the exhibition you're

722
00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:41.760
going to mount
in virginia is going to show

723
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:45.839
very very different situations and
that's all to the good

724
00:56:45.839 --> 00:56:52.880
but it would not be bad maybe to show
the costumes of a few

725
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:57.440
earlier versions of black people in
films perhaps you're aiming to do that

726
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:00.799
anyway
but because the contrast is very very

727
00:57:00.799 --> 00:57:05.680
important i think
i i just say what one thing about it if

728
00:57:05.680 --> 00:57:08.720
if you watch a
tv show as i have it's one of my

729
00:57:08.720 --> 00:57:12.079
favorite shows the good
fight uh in which you've got it

730
00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:16.559
essentially
um a black uh law firm

731
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:20.720
and the the costuming in that is is
pretty fabulous

732
00:57:20.720 --> 00:57:27.920
uh you know uh uh act
various audra mcdonald etc wearing petro

733
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:31.520
i i know this because i'm married to a
fashionista

734
00:57:31.520 --> 00:57:34.559
uh by the way not because i know
anything about fashion

735
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:37.760
uh but uh you know it is pretty
spectacular

736
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:42.160
and i i think uh one of the things that
has happened in popular culture

737
00:57:42.160 --> 00:57:47.359
uh is that african-american sense of
style which has always been pretty great

738
00:57:47.359 --> 00:57:50.720
it's just been suppressed or over there
somewhere

739
00:57:50.720 --> 00:57:54.480
has now blossomed and it's in the art
world i think we

740
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:57.680
we we know this museums are doing a lot
with that i think

741
00:57:57.680 --> 00:58:04.240
uh today it's a spectacular addition
that was always there but was ignored or

742
00:58:04.240 --> 00:58:08.640
wasn't recognized by
by the majority culture and now is and

743
00:58:08.640 --> 00:58:11.680
and
and so i just want to say you know uh

744
00:58:11.680 --> 00:58:15.280
god bless america that that's happened

745
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:22.319
great elizabeth another one yes indeed i
i'll uh i'll give you two at once here

746
00:58:22.319 --> 00:58:25.520
um
first a comment from wendy who says that

747
00:58:25.520 --> 00:58:28.799
her online film club has been really
popular at the library

748
00:58:28.799 --> 00:58:32.799
um using canopy and she'd love some
suggestions

749
00:58:32.799 --> 00:58:39.119
and then second one from erica
says that pop culture used to exist in a

750
00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:42.319
specific time
but now that things are streaming and

751
00:58:42.319 --> 00:58:46.240
everything is available
right now outside of the context in

752
00:58:46.240 --> 00:58:49.599
which it was made
how do we watch things and acknowledge

753
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:54.559
the difference in society and values
and are we creating new ability reducing

754
00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:59.839
the ability to create
new or current pop culture

755
00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:06.400
that's a tough question i think it's a
huge question

756
00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:11.119
simply i don't know the answer i think
that

757
00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:16.079
i think that one of the one of the very
important things in

758
00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:20.880
home watching is and here's a technology
that

759
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:25.760
has changed the world it's the remote

760
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:30.960
so that you're watching tv
and you don't like what you're watching

761
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:35.599
so you start
thumbing the remote to get to something

762
00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:39.760
else
and as you do that you become like a

763
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:43.680
sort of
automatic editing machine of your own tv

764
00:59:43.680 --> 00:59:49.680
and it's enormously
interesting to do it because you

765
00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:55.599
suddenly get a sense
of the multiple versions of the world

766
00:59:55.599 --> 01:00:00.720
and you know you cut from an ad to a
religious program

767
01:00:00.720 --> 01:00:05.119
and if you just go back and forth
between the two

768
01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:09.440
they are preaching in not dissimilar
ways

769
01:00:09.440 --> 01:00:18.000
but recommending very different things
and i think that using the remote

770
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:23.359
for an hour a day is an enormously
educational thing and i would urge

771
01:00:23.359 --> 01:00:27.440
people to do it
more we have hundreds of channels

772
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:31.839
we can look at take advantage of that
great range

773
01:00:31.839 --> 01:00:36.880
it's all very all well and good to
concentrate on one channel

774
01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:40.160
obviously that's the essential way of
watching but

775
01:00:40.160 --> 01:00:45.760
the variety that is out there
and getting at it can be very

776
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:50.079
instructive about the nature of the
world we're living in

777
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:56.000
so i'd i'd say everything i agree with
with what what david just said i would

778
01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:58.160
say
if you're watching something streaming

779
01:00:58.160 --> 01:01:00.720
if you're like if you're getting it
getting on your phone or your

780
01:01:00.720 --> 01:01:04.000
ipad or or on your tv or however you're
getting it

781
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:07.680
um you're also able to go and take a
look at other things on the internet and

782
01:01:07.680 --> 01:01:10.480
i would suggest
you know i don't always suggest this but

783
01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:14.559
with films i probably would
wikipedia uh it will give you some

784
01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:17.760
context
uh for uh for a film not for everything

785
01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:21.599
i i
you know i watched intolerance on over

786
01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:24.640
the last few days because i thought i
might be talking about it with david

787
01:01:24.640 --> 01:01:28.240
uh with the dw griffith film that he
made after birth of a nation

788
01:01:28.240 --> 01:01:32.640
um i i watched it on my iphone actually
which was an experience it's like

789
01:01:32.640 --> 01:01:36.000
like i read wordsworth's the prelude on
my iphone

790
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:39.520
phone at one point and i i decided that
was not the perfect experience for

791
01:01:39.520 --> 01:01:42.160
reading
wordsworth um and it's not the perfect

792
01:01:42.160 --> 01:01:44.640
experience for watching intolerance for
sure

793
01:01:44.640 --> 01:01:48.079
um but it would would have been very
helpful for me to have gone

794
01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:52.480
which in fact i did to uh some books
such as david's books

795
01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:56.799
to to look at the context of of
intolerance which among other things

796
01:01:56.799 --> 01:02:00.799
is two years after birth of a nation
which is a purely racist movie i mean it

797
01:02:00.799 --> 01:02:04.880
is a celebration of the ku klux klan
and intolerance of course is a purely

798
01:02:04.880 --> 01:02:09.359
liberal movie about
being against intolerance um and you

799
01:02:09.359 --> 01:02:16.319
have to understand
what dw griffith's very complex

800
01:02:17.359 --> 01:02:22.240
background and and mental state which is
partly a state of the of the nation at

801
01:02:22.240 --> 01:02:24.720
the time and partly a state of his
background

802
01:02:24.720 --> 01:02:28.640
um uh to to really understand what's
going on in in that movie and

803
01:02:28.640 --> 01:02:32.799
and and also that he might in some some
small way being tried trying to make

804
01:02:32.799 --> 01:02:37.200
amends for for for one of the
one of the worst movies ever made from a

805
01:02:37.200 --> 01:02:40.720
racial point of view it's a brilliant
movie from a technological point of view

806
01:02:40.720 --> 01:02:44.480
uh it's called the birth of the art of
film uh by

807
01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:48.000
by some critics and historians but it's
a purely racist movie

808
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:52.079
which probably probably caused some of
the racial

809
01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:55.280
uh animosity that led to things like the
growth

810
01:02:55.280 --> 01:03:02.720
of lynchings in the immediate aftermath
of the film okay

811
01:03:02.720 --> 01:03:08.400
um so i uh i'll since we're
getting close to our time um i'll just

812
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:12.160
note an interesting follow-up
comments by ronald who says that he

813
01:03:12.160 --> 01:03:16.400
orders films for his library
and in the past couple of years he's

814
01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:20.240
noticed a decline in
dvd circulation in our upscale

815
01:03:20.240 --> 01:03:23.599
communities
and an increase in other communities um

816
01:03:23.599 --> 01:03:28.480
and they've found that very
very informative interesting yeah

817
01:03:28.480 --> 01:03:32.000
and i will just uh close us out thank
you

818
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:35.839
um for those of you who have stayed on a
couple extra minutes i will

819
01:03:35.839 --> 01:03:40.319
um not end on a light note and pose one
last question for you this is a

820
01:03:40.319 --> 01:03:46.079
a question from gladstone who says for a
number of reasons

821
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:49.200
maybe growing divisions in our culture
writ large

822
01:03:49.200 --> 01:03:53.359
it seems like we're really focused on
demystifying the world

823
01:03:53.359 --> 01:03:58.000
so why if that's the case is they're not
an equal creative response

824
01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:02.799
during this pandemic like other
seemingly dystopian periods such as

825
01:04:02.799 --> 01:04:08.880
dog day afternoon apocalypse now or taxi
driver how do you think the pandemic

826
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:16.079
is is affecting filmmaking
um i don't think it has

827
01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:22.960
yet and i think that that is
probably because so many

828
01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:28.160
filmmakers like anyone else are in a
kind of state of shock

829
01:04:28.160 --> 01:04:35.359
where getting through surviving
is very important but i do think

830
01:04:35.359 --> 01:04:43.039
just talking to creative people you
find more and more people are

831
01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:47.680
discovering
aspects of human and social nature

832
01:04:47.680 --> 01:04:51.680
during a lockdown that they didn't
expect

833
01:04:51.680 --> 01:04:58.799
and that is really intriguing and
i think that the kind of

834
01:04:58.799 --> 01:05:05.200
new loneliness
that covet has

835
01:05:05.280 --> 01:05:08.480
forced upon us i think that is going to
be getting

836
01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:14.880
into all the arts and
many other aspects of life pretty soon

837
01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:22.000
and and it would not surprise me
that in the next few years

838
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:28.960
there is a kind of flowering of new
maybe dangerous but very challenging

839
01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:32.799
interesting
ideas in the arts just as there has to

840
01:05:32.799 --> 01:05:37.280
be
in society i think

841
01:05:37.280 --> 01:05:44.559
we probably have to reappraise
a whole sense of what we want from

842
01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:51.599
police in reality
but a part of that i think we have to

843
01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:57.039
develop a new way of
treating police characters in the movies

844
01:05:57.039 --> 01:06:04.960
because the stereotype of cops
in movies has had a lot to do with the

845
01:06:04.960 --> 01:06:09.839
more regrettable circumstances in which
cops

846
01:06:09.839 --> 01:06:14.799
find themselves in reality today so the
two things are very connected but

847
01:06:14.799 --> 01:06:19.599
i do think that that we could be in for
a very rich

848
01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:24.319
five or six years or so and i'm full of
hope

849
01:06:24.319 --> 01:06:29.920
and i'd i'd just say uh that i i think
one reason we're not seeing so much

850
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:34.559
direct response is that we're still
it's david said probably processing it

851
01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:39.119
at some level but also dealing with it
you know there was a huge uh increase in

852
01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:44.079
the first few months of the pandemic of
people watching uh pandemic related

853
01:06:44.079 --> 01:06:49.520
movies you know the dustin hoffman
movie uh et cetera and everybody

854
01:06:49.520 --> 01:06:53.280
i admit it i did it too um and i was
reading the books about i was going back

855
01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:56.559
you know to
to the last man by mary shelley and and

856
01:06:56.559 --> 01:07:00.000
uh
diary of a play gear uh journal of the

857
01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:03.760
play gear etc
um i've stopped doing that now i'm you

858
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:07.760
know now i'm watching uh
all creatures great and small uh because

859
01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:12.240
i want to get away from
the the disaster um i think you'll

860
01:07:12.240 --> 01:07:15.520
you'll probably see some
some some really interesting and epic

861
01:07:15.520 --> 01:07:18.720
work before uh
before too long about what what's

862
01:07:18.720 --> 01:07:22.559
happened and i think one thing
that has happened in the pandemic and

863
01:07:22.559 --> 01:07:27.200
and david alluded to this
um and we might have a little bit of a

864
01:07:27.200 --> 01:07:30.000
disagreement about
how it happens and how we how we deal

865
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:33.440
with it but the social justice effects
of the

866
01:07:33.440 --> 01:07:37.119
pandemic or injustice effects of the
pandemic

867
01:07:37.119 --> 01:07:41.359
reveal something about the way we
structure our our society

868
01:07:41.359 --> 01:07:45.440
and i think you'll you'll see commentary
on that from the world with the arts and

869
01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:50.400
humanities and i think you'll see
government uh uh and institutions like

870
01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:54.319
libraries and museums try to deal with
that

871
01:07:55.039 --> 01:08:00.960
well thank you so much we do
and and uh special thanks to to you

872
01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.920
crosby for hosting such a riveting
discussion

873
01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:08.720
and uh thank you very much david for
joining us it was a

874
01:08:08.720 --> 01:08:13.920
really engaging i want to thank everyone
who helped put this together

875
01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:18.239
bubble crosby who is an old friend and
and um

876
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:24.319
we often disagree
and disagreement is a very very

877
01:08:24.319 --> 01:08:28.960
important
aspect of conversation and i want to say

878
01:08:28.960 --> 01:08:31.600
one
one last thing which is it may be that

879
01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:35.199
the movies in more ways than one have
gotten small

880
01:08:35.199 --> 01:08:38.159
but our film critic

881
01:08:38.370 --> 01:08:43.540
[Laughter]

882
01:08:51.120 --> 01:08:57.839
you can find this on imls.gov afterwards
take care